Has any builder used rosewood or mahogany?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 26 Oct 2002 11:24 pm

Everybody always uses maple, which is fine, but rosewood and mahogany are also fine sounding woods. Has anybody ever made a rosewood or mahogany steel?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 27 Oct 2002 12:21 am

Mike P.,

Yes, Mike, I had chosen those two woods for my steel.

Body - Honduras Mahogany
Raised neck - Rosewood
Arm rest - Rock hard curly maple

Mechanical Features:

"Lucky 7", Golo, 6th str. comp., plus the HUF (Hankey Upright Fretboard) to guide me, like a "lamp in the window".

Bill H.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 27 Oct 2002 5:16 am

Mike:

My 1970 Fulawka has a maple top with Brazillian rosewood aprons and neck.

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ICQ 614585

http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html

[This message was edited by Graham on 27 October 2002 at 05:19 AM.]

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 27 Oct 2002 7:11 am

I do not have a rosewood or mahogany but I do have a combination thats really an eye pleaser a highly figured all wood maple - walnut combination that plays as well as it looks.The body is maple, with a walnut top,and a maple neck.The guitar is set up Extended E-9.When people see and hear it the green backs come out.The guitar was built by Bob Simmons (205}647-2331.[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 27 October 2002 at 07:12 AM.][This message was edited by Andy Alford on 27 October 2002 at 07:14 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 27 Oct 2002 10:09 am

I have 3 Sho-Buds with maple tops and rosewood aprons and necks, sorry, no photos. Two are 'fingertips' (including a basket case) and one is a triple neck, two 11s and a 16, that is slowly, very slowly, being restored. Red Rhodes had a mahogonay Fender.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 27 Oct 2002 10:16 am

Emmons made a mahogany laquer PP with maple veneer that was originally made for Bobbe Seymore. Cal Sharp and I owned this guitar for a while. It made it back to Bobbe, who sold it last year.

This is an amazing sounding guitar.

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www.tyack.com

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 27 Oct 2002 3:03 pm

I have a Fessenden D-10 with curly maple top and cocobolo aprons. Mark Giles did a fine job on the cabinet and inlay.[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 27 October 2002 at 03:03 PM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 27 Oct 2002 10:05 pm

Yea, but what do these other woods sound like?

Brad Sarno

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 28 Oct 2002 3:13 am

Brad

Last night I switched guitars from my hotly sought after------ to my custom Simmons.The Simmons sound won hands down.Bob is such a builder, who knows what he's creating when he starts with the wood.Of all the steels that I have played and there have been very many this Simmons ranks near the top.If you ever liked the older Sho-buds then the Simmons will make you happy.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 28 Oct 2002 3:34 am

what do these other woods sound like?

I've been told that mahogany has a much richer tone than maple. Maple is supposed to yield a bright tone, which is conducive to a darker, more midrangy kind of tone.

Gibson Les Paul guitars are usually mahogany with a maple cap. I've been told that the one exception to this is the "Black beauty" which is all mahogany. I've also been told that these guitars sound darker than other Les Pauls. I've not compared them.

Here is an interesting review of a guitar from the Harmony Central user review site that talks about this.

The sound of the (Brian Moore) C-55 is direct product of the woods combined. Mahogany provides the clear low end, the refined low-mids and the rich highs. Maple on top gives the needed bite and the color in the upper-mid frequencies, while Maple/Rosewood necks usually compliment the previous with a darker but clearer tone in the mids and a less acoustic attack when overdriving the signal.

My guess is that a mahogany guitar would sound great.
[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 28 October 2002 at 07:20 AM.]

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 28 Oct 2002 4:47 am

Eureka! Now I know where the term "cabinet drop" came from. Thanks guys. lol

BS and that is no bs..

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 28 Oct 2002 7:06 am

Brad
You have a recording of my show at ISGC. The guitar is a Fessenden with maple top and rosewood aprons. That's what they sound like.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 28 Oct 2002 8:33 am

I always thought it strange that there are so many rosewood mica and mahagony mica steel guitars, and very few real rosewood or mahagony steel guitars. Just seemed weird.

my emmons is birdseye on the outside (veneer) and mahagony on underneath. I think it sounds superb.
http://www.skobrien.com/emmons/

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 28 Oct 2002 10:54 am

Hey Herb, How about posting a picture of the Fessy?

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My gear: A piece of wood with some wires attached

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 28 Oct 2002 1:02 pm

I'm not sure if it will correlate to steels, but here are my thoughts on all mahogany vs. mahogany w/ maple cap, and I have done some A/B comparisons of this.

Early this year, I bought a Terry McInturff Taurus, which is a solid body electric 2 humbucker guitar similar to a Les Paul.

The important point is that the guitar is offered with a mahogany top or a maple top with no other changes between the 2 models, which allows a direct comparison
of having a maple top.

I was able to try both, and IMO the maple top adds upper midrange to the initial pick attack, but if you listen to a sustaining note on the 2 guitars they are very similar after the attack. The harmonic structure of the all mahogany guitar is more constant through the total sustain of a note, which gives more of a violin type aspect to the tone.

A lot of guitarists say the maple top gives "snap" or the "notes are quick off the pick", which is another way to say it I guess.

I liked the all mahogany guitar better, and bought that one, I liked the more even response up and down the neck. The maple seems to accentuate certains frequencies and neck positions more than others. The all mahogany guitar is plenty bright, although McInturff uses a 25 1/8 scale, exactly between the Fender 25 1/2 and the Gibson 24 3/4, which does add brightness.

Structurally, maple is stronger than mahogany, so that would have to be addressed in the PSG cabinet design.

Sam White · Post by **Sam White** » 28 Oct 2002 4:16 pm

I 'm now building my second 10 string steel and I have made a maple neck and I'm using
Popular for the body.I now have the body and the neck built and I stained the neck and the body Peacon with polyurathane and two coats of clear poly.All i'm waiting for is the parts from my freind Jerry Fessenden.I was going to make a 12 string but made the body to short so I'll stick with the 10 string. I'll make my first one a C-6 that way I can use the under carriage rods for this new one and make new rods for the C-6.I use stainless steel welding rods for the pull rods.They work fine and are nice and clean looking.I also have my SD-10 with 3-4 Fessenden That I had Jerry build for me.
Sam White[This message was edited by Samuel E. White on 28 October 2002 at 04:18 PM.]

Harry Hess · Post by **Harry Hess** » 28 Oct 2002 9:06 pm

Stephen O'Brien,

Looks like you got that custom job from Bobbe Seymour that he had made years back. That's a "REAL BEAUT". You're one lucky so & so.

Regards,
HH

Michael T. Hermsmeyer · Post by **Michael T. Hermsmeyer** » 29 Oct 2002 3:51 am

Paul Franklin Sr. once told me that Paul Jr.'s Baby Blue Franklin had a mahogany top and maple sides, under the blue mica. He told me that fine furniture builders often choose mahogany for it's stability and ease of use. He said that he didn't think there was any difference in the tone of this guitar as compared to the same model with a maple top. I would say that, as this is arguably one of the most recorded steels in the history of country music, that it don't sound bad. I believe that if you A/B'd this guitar and an all maple model of the same era, there would be a subtle difference. But typically, 90% of a modern pedal steel guitars tone comes from the changer, pickup neck, headstock and the amp you are playing through. The body, though very important in the respect that it holds all the pieces together, doesn't seem like it would contribute greatly to the tone of the instrument. For instance, the new MSA's sound awesome, old Ricks were made from bakelite, Ovations are made out of plastic....... OK, forget about that last one, Hahaha. This is just my opinion, I haven't actually built a steel. I have built a solid walnut amp cabinet and I do love the tone. I would love to have a solid walnut steel to match and I do think it would sound awesome. I would like to hear a fiddle made from mahogany, or walnut, or even rosewood, but they must use maple for a reason. Perhaps all the trial and error was done 300 years ago and I shouldn't worry about it. I believe that the choice of a tone wood is much more critical in an acoustic instrument such as a Dreadnought acoustic guitar or a Dobro. You can use different woods in subtle ways to make a huge difference in the tone. Even a different neck wood can change the sound of the same guitar. Please don't get me wrong, I love solidbody guitars and they do all sound different. One of my favorite woods is swamp ash. My stringmaster, three teles, and my bass among others are all made of ash. I love the tone, but the subtle differences in the electronics are what defines the tone of each one, in my opinion. Sorry to type so much, My name is Michael T. and I am a gear-a-holic..... Good Night LOL.

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UTILITY MAN PRODUCTIONS
'73 EMMONS D10 FATBACK, '92 EMMONS D10 LASHLEY LEGRANDE,
'85 DOBRO 60DS, '95 DOBRO F60S,
'95 MELOBAR CUSTOM, 1955 FENDER TRIPLE NECK STRINGMASTER. EVANS, FENDER, PEAVEY,
and MESA BOOGIE Amps.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 29 Oct 2002 8:32 am

Any builder ever tried ebony as wood for the cabinet? Did it work?
Thanks, JJ

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my bands CODand TSC

Scott Swartz · Post by **Scott Swartz** » 29 Oct 2002 8:53 am

Here is an interesting link on tone woods as applicable to acoustic guitars written by Dana Bourgeois, a high priced acoustic maker.
http://www.bourgeoisguitars.com/tapping_tonewoods.htm

JJ,

I just got your "Head Back in the Clouds" CD, nice work! Its great to hear steel in other styles.

[This message was edited by Scott Swartz on 29 October 2002 at 08:53 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 29 Oct 2002 9:19 am

I owned Steven O'Brian's guitar at one time, and I guarentee it sounds different than a standard Emmons. I was looking for that holy grail '67 black emmons mica PP sound at the time, so I traded it. From my memory, I'm pretty sure that today I would prefer the mahogany/maple guitar.

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www.tyack.com

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 29 Oct 2002 1:56 pm

Dan, I'll never be able to thank you enough for parting with that Emmons. It will be my son's inheritance, and he better appreciate it.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 29 Oct 2002 2:02 pm

I've played that Emmons that Stephen O'Brien has, and it has plenty of tone to say the least...It's not quite as brite as a maple Emmons, but the tone is very rich, with plenty of sustain, and with the maple cap's, it has a nice bite to the attack....It's a hybrid Emmons tone that is just so sweet !!...Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 29 Oct 2002 2:05 pm

Stephen,
It would be a real injustice if your son didn't apprecitate that beautiful Emmons...I think the right thing to do would be to sell it to me, and give Jr. the money !!..Yeah, that's the ticket !!...LOL !..Jim

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 29 Oct 2002 6:54 pm

There is certainly a great wealth of information on this Forum regarding the tonal qualities of woods, metals and other materials used in PSG construction (as well as the other factors which contribute to the sound that a given player gets out of a given instrument), and there's a ton more elsewhere, some of it quite scientific. Frankly, I think the personal observations of PSG players and builders are more relevant, but some of the scientific explanations are useful when you consider using materials that are not so widely used. The article by Dana Bourgeois linked above repeats the point made by many others that the speed of sound in a material has a lot to do with its value as a "tone" component. The speed of sound in a material is said to vary directly with the square root of its modulus of elasticity (let's say "stiffness") and inversely with the square root of its density. In other words, a high ratio of stiffness to density is good for instrument building, although I DON'T think it will tell you what KIND of tone an instrument will produce -- that's where experience comes in. Still, it's interesting to compare this ratio for some woods and other materials often used, or not often used, in building PSGs:

Douglas fir 2.79
basswood*
sitka spruce 2.70
Englemann spruce 2.56
Hawaiian koa 2.33
redwood 2.31

Except for basswood, which was a surprise to me, the woods above make good guitar tops, but are considered too soft and weak for PSG bodies. Moving on to "stronger" woods,

birch 2.24
ebony 2.12
black walnut 2.11
maple 2.09**
poplar*
white ash 2.03**
Honduras mahogany 2.00**

* (these rankings based on speed of sound numbers from a different source)

** (numbers for different species vary, and these may not be a good representation)

Aluminum seems to rank about with good ash, based on speed of sound, and it certainly has a high stiffness to mass ratio. Maybe someone can supply some numbers.

And, oh yes, graphite carbon epoxy composite? On the same index as the woods listed above, it measures out at 4.73. [This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 29 October 2002 at 06:57 PM.][This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 29 October 2002 at 06:58 PM.]