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Topic: Thumb+Middle vs Index+Middle |
Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 2:19 am |
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I've been chatting with a fellow steel picker and good buddy from Finland, Peter Nylund. Peter, without question, knows his way around pedals, knees, and what ever else allows him to be one of the most sought after steel player for gigs. Having said that, here is the topic at hand which we've been discussing. Why use your thumb and middle while striking two notes at the same time as opposed to using your index and middle. I suppose BPM may be a determining factor for said preference/choice, however, some would opt to use middle and index all the time. For me, I hear variances in tone from alternating between the two. I'd invite all to chime in for your constructive thoughts.
_________________
Assorted gear and a set of hands...
https://www.facebook.com/garythelee
https://www.youtube.com/user/ZumEmm |
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Peter Nylund
From:
Finland
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 3:15 am
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Well, well! Being a sought after gig player, that's a good one. I think I played one gig last year and this year slightly less. But anyway, I completely agree that there is a difference in tone between the two ways to strike the strings, in fact there might also be a slight difference between thumb+index and thumb+middle. Using a plastic thumb pick vs. metal also results in different tone.
I think I'm too old to change my habits anyway so I will continue using whatever finger is closest.
Sorry about my crappy English.
Peter
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I know my playing is a bit pitchy, but at least my tone sucks |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 5:30 am
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Gary, if you're new at steel (heck, even if you're not), I'd scoot down to Silver Spring for a lesson or two from Mike Auldridge. When I started, he explained why thumb and middle. in the intervening 8 hectofortnights, I've forgotten why. But he's a good teacher
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 6:15 am
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Gary fwiw, I believe ONE of the reasons for using Thumb/middle is that a lot of us were indoctrinated with it by Jeff Newman. Jeff had certain teaching standards that he taught all his students such as favouring the thumb/mid fingers and palm blocking. He did it this way by necessity I'm sure, or else he would have been all over the map with all us newbie pickers there by causing more confusion on an already confusing instrument. This might sound familiar to you since you had Buddy Charlton as a teacher...he and Jeff were from the same era and most likely taught much the same way.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 7:26 am
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Bent, since you mentioned Charleton, he once told me his index finger was almost an annoyance, getting in the way. He also spoke of Jeff, talking about bar slants verses knee levers. But that is another topic all together....Buddy was sure detail oriented when it came to tone.
_________________
Assorted gear and a set of hands...
https://www.facebook.com/garythelee
https://www.youtube.com/user/ZumEmm |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 1:39 pm
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I think it has to do with the fact that you have your 'thumb' and 'middle finger' lined up ready to go with the hand grip... and changing position to use the 2 fingers 'breaks the mould' as to speak...I know what you mean brother, i have been doing the same exsperiment...It sounds thicker with thumb and middle to me and my brain doesent have to adjust on the fly for a different finger postion, but i did 2 fingers for years until i re-learned the Newman way....God bless my wife, she buy's lovely christmas present's! 
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 2:21 pm
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Not having a teacher around when I started, I started to play the way that felt natural. Now I`m stuck with thumb/index. It kinda makes sense to me to have the middle finger always ready to hit the chromatics....
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 2:41 pm Re: Thumb+Middle vs Index+Middle
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| Gary Lee Gimble wrote: |
| ...here is the topic at hand which we've been discussing. Why use your thumb and middle while striking two notes at the same time as opposed to using your index and middle. |
Gary, are you talking about playing scales, or fast single note melody lines? As for myself (not being much of a picker any more) I use a lot of 3-strings harmonies, so doing without the index finger is unfathomable, for me. I can see why the thumb/middle is better for some players, in that they are in direct opposition, and that might make it easier, physiologically. I can also see where the thumb/middle might sound fuller, owing to the fatter sound of a plastic pick vs. a metal one. However, I personally find it easier to use the index/middle combination for some fast double-stops...but that's just me. In the end, I think each player should use whatever works best for him/her.
| Quote: |
| For me, I hear variances in tone from alternating between the two. |
I agree, and discerning steelers or guitar players might also detect these subtleties. However, I do feel that minute technical details like this are probably lost to 99% of our listening audience. |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 3:06 pm
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Donny,
I've been using thumb and middle for a long time now, way before I sought additional guidance from Charleton. There is an underlining theme associated with this thread which has been unknowingly endorsed by Olli and Peter. Olli said he's "stuck" and Peter made mention of being "too old." I say hog wash as there are subtleties to be had, excluding the listening audience. 
_________________
Assorted gear and a set of hands...
https://www.facebook.com/garythelee
https://www.youtube.com/user/ZumEmm |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 4:29 pm Let youre fingers do the walking
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For single run notes they all get used well in the mix. For chords, it depends on the grips and where I am going next and where I have been previuosly. I must admit though that youre middle and thumb being the outside fingers of the group that most of the action happens there for me but I never bypass my index, when ever I can use it I will. Like that saying" well if youre going to stand around you may as well do something"
This is a personal journey that really in the end I had to make my own mind up which fingers are going to do what, I like Pauk Franklins take on it, " figure out which fingers you are going to pick with on youre own because that is what will naturally work the best for YOU!".
Quentin |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 5:58 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Gary, if you're new at steel (heck, even if you're not), I'd scoot down to Silver Spring for a lesson or two from Mike Auldridge. When I started, he explained why thumb and middle. in the intervening 8 hectofortnights, I've forgotten why. But he's a good teacher |
Lane, since his own modesty prevents, I thought I'd clue you in that Gary is not only not a beginner, he's a very accomplished picker!
On the topic at hand (no pun intended), I've always (29 years now) tended to use thumb and middle for single-note playing and for two-part harmonies, but have always wondered how the "pros" did it, particularly, for two-part harmonies, when the strings are adjacent, and have lately been trying to incorporate index & middle more. My index finger has always felt extraneous, except (of course) for three or more note chords.
I always kind of liked what Albert Lee once said in an interview, when asked about his pick + two fingers technique on guitar: he said (paraphrasing) "I just use whatever's handy." |
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Franklin
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Posted 22 Sep 2012 7:39 pm
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If you guys are talking about playing two strings at a time.....I often play two strings with the index and middle finger....
Paul |
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Russ Blake
From:
Oregon, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2012 12:58 am
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Here's a clip of "Together Again" and I think it's pretty clear what Tom Brumley thought sounded best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYKVb7T1n2I
It looks like he's avoiding the thumb as much as possible. And, really, could it sound any better? |
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Peter Nylund
From:
Finland
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Posted 23 Sep 2012 3:35 am
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If using the index and middle finger is good enough for Mr Franklin I see no reason to change my habits.
_________________
I know my playing is a bit pitchy, but at least my tone sucks |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 23 Sep 2012 4:16 am
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One way of looking at it is that we play an instrument so young that no set rules really exist...
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Sep 2012 1:14 pm
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Yes, Brint. I've been apprised of Gary's stellar ability and longtime tutelage under Buddy Charleton. I'd sorta assumed newbiedom from both the question and the fact that I'd foolishly thought I'd have heard of most of the steel pickers from my hometown that woulda been active before I left.
My apologies, Gary.
Both Buddies mainly used P&M, except when the index would make a primary logical choice.
i've no idea how the practice came about; I know that's how I do it. Except when I don't (mainly chicken pickin double stops).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 29 Sep 2012 8:41 am
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| Years ago, I saw Jay Dee speedpicking with just his index and middle fingers, with his thumb just resting on the strings. I've never seen anyone else do that. FWIW |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2012 9:15 am
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While it seems to make sense to use "what's comfortable" or "whatever finger is there", which I tend to do in many cases, there is a real logic to putting in the time to train your hand/brain to use different combinations to make yourself more comfortable and versatile in any given situation.
For instance for me, while I would mostly use index and middle together while playing harmonies on strings 2 and 3, then 1 and 2, 3 and 4 or similar patterns, I'll alternate between index/middle, thumb and middle or thumb and index when moving up and down the neck on strings 5 and 6 to get the slight differences in tonality I hear from the choice. But the same moves on strings 5 and 8 would always be thumb and middle for me, I guess because of the spread.
An example from banjo technique might help illustrate: (don't look, b0b!) while playing three-finger style and anchoring both pinky and third finger on the banjo head feels like the most uncomfortable, unnatural thing one could do, most banjo players develop that position for the drive and volume it provides. (I play banjo for fun and hand development, and no matter how I try, I gravitate to just the pinky anchored.)
It's worth exploring all the options as much as one can before settling on what works.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 29 Sep 2012 1:15 pm
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| Mark, I almost alway anchor my pinky and ring finger on their consecutaive strings as I pick blockThe only time they come off the strings are when I am doing crossovers or picking with my middle finger. Good point you brought up. |
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Drew Howard
From:
48854
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 11:57 am
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| Thumb and Middle are opposable digits and therefore lend themselves to quick picking. See "banjo". |
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Gary Dilley
From:
Eagle Rock,Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 4:40 pm Re: Thumb+Middle vs Index+Middle
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| Gary Lee Gimble wrote: |
| I've been chatting with a fellow steel picker and good buddy from Finland, Peter Nylund. Peter, without question, knows his way around pedals, knees, and what ever else allows him to be one of the most sought after steel player for gigs. Having said that, here is the topic at hand which we've been discussing. Why use your thumb and middle while striking two notes at the same time as opposed to using your index and middle. I suppose BPM may be a determining factor for said preference/choice, however, some would opt to use middle and index all the time. For me, I hear variances in tone from alternating between the two. I'd invite all to chime in for your constructive thoughts. |
BILLY COOPER WAS JUST TEACHING ME THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO PRACTICE THUMB & MIDDLE FINGER! |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 7:50 pm
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We're talking about playing two notes at a time, like the lead in Together Again?
If its the high B and G# strings, I use my first and second fingers. That way, I can hit the low G# with my thumb if I want to throw that note in. If I'm hitting the low G# and E strings together, it's always my thumb and second finger. |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 Oct 2012 7:50 pm
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We're talking about playing two notes at a time, like the lead in Together Again?
If its the high B and G# strings, I use my first and second fingers. That way, I can hit the low G# with my thumb if I want to throw that note in. If I'm hitting the low G# and E strings together, it's always my thumb and second finger. |
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