Poll: To Split For Sale: Steels With/Without Pedals

[Stephen Cowell]

Obviously this would change *both* the original For Sale: Steel Guitars and create a new For Sale: Non-Pedal Steel Guitars. These would parallel the discussion groups that already exist here.

I realize that some folks like to browse both... I like to browse amps too, and will probably end up buying a pedal steel someday... but the axes are different enough that we have two different discussion groups, don't we? For those that are trying to justify not splitting Steels For Sale... why not? Does this forum not fully support non-pedal steel?

Brad, I apologize if this is not the appropriate forum category, please move it if it needs to be elsewhere. Obviously more than the non-pedalers should be involved... but hiding this poll in Forum Feedback would not be my first choice.

[Dave Mudgett]

There are too many sections now. There was absolutely no problem having all instruments together in the same For Sale section. The usability issue is whether or not there are so many posts in a typical viewing frequency (let's say a day if you're remotely serious about buying anything, shorter than that if you are really looking for something - the good deals get snatched fast) that posts pile up so fast that they leave the first page in that time.

There are NO sections anywhere near that busy - not in classifieds, not anywhere. For Sale: Steel Guitars has all posts going back several days on the first page. For Sale: Other Instruments has all posts going back almost to the beginning of this month on the first page. Only 10 of the 27 overall forum sections require moving to page 2 to see this entire month's activity. Quite a few sections have all the activity going back months and even years on the front page. This is a sign of too many sections, not too few.

Why is it that some members seem to think they should have separate little sections for every little sub-interest group? I believe many members here are interested in a wide range of things, and it's just too many clicks to get to a wide range of sections now. The only alternative is to look at activity since last login, and that really does put EVERYTHING on one page. There is a happy medium to all this - make enough sections so that basically alike topics are in the same place, but some scrolling is required is you are away for a while.

Of course, there is another reason to prefer less sections. The more sections, the more the tendency for people to post in the wrong section. Even after Brad admonished the OP of the original thread calling for this new section that this kind of thing belongs in Forum Feedback, you put this here. This is not just an issue for non-pedalers. The structure of the forum affects everybody. Of course, the main reason people post in the wrong forum is because there are too many sections and it is sometimes ambiguous where a thread really belongs. Again, another sign that there are too many sections.

Some people here in non-pedal section regularly decry the fact that some of us make a semantic distinction between steels with pedals versus steels without pedals. Of course, they are all steel guitars, many of us love and try to play both. The reason it makes sense to me to separate playing issues into two sections is that there is enough activity to support two sections and to some extent, some (not all) of the players of each form essentially two separate steel guitar cultures. So to me, that separation makes some sense. But it makes absolutely no sense to do this for the For Sale aspect of this. Even lumping all instruments together worked fine for years, and would continue to do so.

Less sections, not more sections. My opinion and reasons why.

[Rick Barnhart]

Like the subtitle implies, "anything played with a bar" I kinda like having them all listed in one location. JMHO

[Mike Neer]

I agree with Dave and Rick, no new section.

I implore non-pedal people to check out the other sections of the forum more frequently, like Steel Players, etc., if you don't already--there is a lot to learn from. People like Paul Franklin occasionally post tips that are applicable to non-pedal and pedal, and there are many other things which don't get touched upon in this section.

[Papa Joe Pollick]

It really doesn't make much difference to me..I visit at least twice a day and click on "View posts since last visit"..There are often interesting post that I would miss if I only went to certain sections..

[Bill Ladd]

Too many sections already. I've created a few posts lately where I had trouble choosing the most appropriate section in which to submit.

[Brad Bechtel]

I don't see what problem you're proposing to fix with the creation of a new section.

[Michael Lee Allen]

deleted

[Marc Jenkins]

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=230567

[chris ivey]

how bout a for sale category for black steels...and colored mica steels and another for lacquer with wood neck and then one for lacquer with metal necks and...

c'mon..they supposedly gave you a brain for this.

[Andy Henriksen]

c'mon..they supposedly gave you a brain for this.

Some were even given a brain with a sense of tact and civility. Others...not so much.

[b0b]

I knew a guy who bought a 4-neck Fender and split it into two D-8's.

For what it's worth, I agree with Dave Mudgett on this. Studies have shown that people can't hold more than 6 concepts in their minds simultaneously. In the best user interfaces, the maximum number of choices is 6. After that you have to start grouping them.

We have too many sections already. Adding more does not solve any existing problem.

[Doug Beaumier]

I vote No... a special section for non-pedal steels is not necessary. What IS necessary is that sellers title their ads properly. For example, putting "Sierra" in the subject line isn't clear enough. That could be an 8-string non-pedal or a PSG. Same thing with "Bigsby". And the worst title of all: "For Sale".

[George Piburn]

GeorgeBoards Steel Guitars Advertises Non Pedal Lap Steel Hawaiian "Steel Guitars" for many years.

We like the forum as it is too. Doug's advise is a very good thing, I appreciate and support b0b and his forum as he sees fit.

[chris ivey]

andy...you can't have an opinion here until after your 30th post. don't worry, you'll get the hang of it.

[Dan Carey]

I would like it to be

Steel Players
Pedal Steel
Steel Guitar

[Will Houston]

Who came up with this nonsense. Just leave it the way it is. And I'm sure b0b will.

[Stephen Cowell]

Right now in "FS Steel Guitars" there are only fourteen non-pedal listings on the first page (snip)

You help me make my point... how many pedal steel listings did you browse to find those? I just counted 64 per page on pg 1... that would make 50.

I'm also hearing things like 'you should browse more different categories' and 'more than six things confuses people'. Well, is it more, or less, that is desirable?

So now... justify our two discussion forums, with and without pedals. Why do we support this? Don't we want more cross-culture interaction? Wouldn't the collapse of the categories create fewer categories?
Why *do* we separate these discussions?

[b0b]

I would like it to be

Steel Players
Pedal Steel
Steel Guitar

We have a membership list that goes back 15 years. Some people log in every few months, some go away for 5 years and then come back. I try to keep things as stable as I can. It's not good to be changing things around a lot.

I understand that some of the people who come here every day would like to see some changes. I just don't think that it's in the best interest of the whole membership to change things very often.

There's going to be a big change next time I update the software. This version of phpBB is 7 years old. It doesn't support media links, image thumbnails or mobile phones. I'll be trying real hard to keep things recognizable.

It's really not a good idea to change the names of the forum sections, especially when a lot of other things will soon be changing. People need consistency over time.

[Kekoa Blanchet]

Well, it appears that I'm in the minority here, but I'll pipe up anyhow.

It would be useful to separate lap steels from pedal steels for the same reason that we separate steel guitars from electronics: it's just easier to find what you're looking for when all the listings are relevant. When I go to eBay, I search for "lap steel" rather than "steel guitar," because it takes so much more time to wade through all the pedal steel listings that would show up in the "steel guitar" search. Here on the Steel Guitar Forum, I rarely visit the For Sale section, because when I do, I'm faced with pages of cryptic listing titles, most of which probably aren't lap steels (but I'm never quite sure).

But for me, the value of this website is in the Steel Without Pedals discussion section. If the For Sale section isn't easy to use, I can live with that. I wish it was different, but I also wish I was seven feet tall and played ball for the Lakers. If I need a new lap steel, there are plenty of other resources for buy/sell. I respect the work that Bobby Lee puts into this site, and if he doesn't want to create a new section, that's fine with me.

[Dave Mudgett]

You help me make my point... how many pedal steel listings did you browse to find those? I just counted 64 per page on pg 1... that would make 50.

What you're asking is that everybody else on this forum that has a wider range of interests be required to click through a sea of sections to save you from scrolling and reading a few lines in the one section you care about. It makes no sense. You want a new section for, at most, just a few posts a day.

So now... justify our two discussion forums, with and without pedals. Why do we support this? Don't we want more cross-culture interaction? Wouldn't the collapse of the categories create fewer categories?

I did explain that in my earlier post, it's partly pragmatic and partly music-cultural. First, they are both very active sections with plenty of posts. If they were combined, it would create a very busy section indeed. Second, from a playing and mechanical point of view, there are significant differences in point of view, even though they are all steel guitars. This stands in sharp contrast to the For Sale section - there aren't that many For Sale posts and instruments are commodities to be bought and sold, period. b0b could re-lump all the instruments together, as was the case for years, and cause no problems.

... I'm faced with pages of cryptic listing titles, most of which probably aren't lap steels (but I'm never quite sure).

Truly cryptic thread titles are a problem no matter how the sections are organized. If I see a For Sale thread entitled, "Stuff for Sale", "For Sale", or "Steel Guitar", it doesn't really matter what section it's in. In addition, posters like this frequently don't post in the correct section anyway, and more sections just confuses them to boot. But I just looked over all three For Sale sections (Steel Guitars, Other Instruments, Amps and Accessories), and out of all the first page posts (180-200 posts), I only found 3 thread titles that didn't give reasonably clear info about what was being sold. There really is no problem that I can see.

I would like it to be

Steel Players
Pedal Steel
Steel Guitar

And so pedal steel guitars aren't steel guitars? I think this implication is the crux of the reason why some people are making these arguments for separate sections - they seem to view pedal steels as not part of the steel guitar family, and are apparently something they don't want to be associated with. Tell me I'm wrong, but that's the way this sounds to me.

[Stephen Cowell]

You help me make my point... how many pedal steel listings did you browse to find those? I just counted 64 per page on pg 1... that would make 50.

What you're asking is that everybody else on this forum that has a wider range of interests be required to click through a sea of sections (snip)

One extra For Sale: section, a 'sea'? Hyperbole much?

Second, from a playing and mechanical point of view, there are significant differences in point of view, even though they are all steel guitars.

Then why don't they belong in separate categories? We separate the discussions, don't we?

It's not a 'problem to solve'... e.g. what 'problem' did the invention of the chair solve? You can always sit on the ground... it's about convenience. The trend is to have greater specialization... we're not posting on a generic Music forum, we're here because we share an interest in steel guitar. Further specialization is simply the future, rail against it how you like.

[Rick Barnhart]

b0b has given his decision and clearly said why. And, the poll seems to support it.

[Dave Mudgett]

One extra For Sale: section, a 'sea'? Hyperbole much?

No hyperbole, the sea of sections is already out there, and if b0b acted on even a fraction of the requests for new sections, it would be even worse. I'm arguing for simplicity, and against clutter. If you read carefully, you'll see that I'm arguing for the dissolution of unneeded sections, of which there are several.

Second, from a playing and mechanical point of view, there are significant differences in point of view, even though they are all steel guitars.

Then why don't they belong in separate categories? We separate the discussions, don't we?

Read "First", the main issue is usability pragmatics. There are a lot of posts in both Pedal Steel and Steel Without Pedals, enough that if you combined them, the number of daily posts would be very large. Of course, from a playing and mechanics point of view, there are differences, but also many similarities. But from a "For Sale" point of view, they're all steel guitars - "commodities for sale". Nor are there enough posts to justify a separate section from a usability point of view. Why should people need to click in and out of many multiple sections just to see a few dribs and drabs of new threads of each type? It makes no sense.

It's not a 'problem to solve'... e.g. what 'problem' did the invention of the chair solve?

As far as invention goes, inventions like wheels, chairs, electric lights, telephones, and so on, were most definitely developed to solve problems. If there is any problem here at all, it is that there are already too many sections now.

... we're here because we share an interest in steel guitar. Further specialization is simply the future, rail against it how you like.

I do agree that we're here for a love of steel guitar. But I completely disagree that in such an already small and specialized world like steel guitar that it's remotely a good idea to gratuitously silo the field even further. If you're suggesting that the structure of the forum be changed to even further inhibit cross-fertilization of ideas, you're gonna get an argument from me, and as you can see, plenty of others. I'm arguing that, where practical, it would be a good idea to move the other direction.

[b0b]

Originally, the was only one "For Sale" category. It was split gradually, as each category reached the point where posts were scrolling off the bottom of page one too quickly.

The criteria for deciding to divide a section is traffic, pure and simple. Some low-traffic sections were created because there was no logical place to put the topics. The recording and BIAB sections are examples of that.

There is not currently an excess of traffic in For Sale: Steel Guitars. If you recall, the last split was Steel Guitars vs Other Instruments. That relieved the pressure and was a good, logical split.

The next logical split of the section to relieve traffic pressure would be D-10 Pedal Steels vs Other Steel Guitars. There are more D-10's than non-pedal.

Most pedal steel players also play lap steel. Most of the members of the forum are pedal steel players. For Sale: Steel Guitars is very convenient for them. It works well. The current categories will remain for the foreseeable future.