Dave Mudgett wrote:You don't need to change your pedal/lever setup one iota to get the C note crisply and easily. Bent says you have split tuning screws on every string, so all you need to do is to set your A-pedal and your B=>Bb lever to tune the split, as mentioned above. It's really easy to do this with split tuning screws.
Yes.
Dave Mudgett wrote:.. if you make this A-pedal/B=>Bb-lever split, then if you make a change to the guitar, the first one you should make is to set your guitar to put your B=>Bb lever and your E=>Eb lever on opposite knees.
I don't think so. It's set up nicely now. In fact it's almost identical to my basic setup, except that my right knee moves are opposite of his (my RKR lowers G#s to G).
No argument there - there's absolutely nothing wrong with the setup as it is now, which was my basic thesis above - do the 5th string split tuning to get the C note, and learn to play the guitar as-is. My statement was conditional - "if" you make a change to the guitar ....
Of course, there are advantages and disadvantages to different setup approaches. I know I'm far from alone in preferring E=>Eb and B=>Bb on opposite knees, but that doesn't mean one or the other is 'better' or 'worse'. There are always tradeoffs in any design. Even Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin don't agree on something basic such as whether to keep the E raise/lower on the same knee or on opposite knees. The only way I ever could reconcile these kinds of decisions for myself was to try them both ways and see what worked for me, and that's all I'm suggesting for this.
But to be clear - for now, I was suggesting to just put the split on there and focus on learning to play the guitar, not to mess around under the hood.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 21 Sep 2012 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave, and this is just for curiosity's sake, what do you use the Bb and D# levers together for? I thought long and hard about that and can't find a reason to do that.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 .Playing for 53 years and still counting.
Richard Sinkler wrote:...what do you use the Bb and D# levers together for?...
I like the diminished chord you get with the A+[B>Bb]+[E>D#]. It's easier with the B>Bb and E>D# on separate knees.
I think Reece Anderson told us about that combo here on the Forum a few years back.
It works great on S12U.
Denoting E=>Eb as E, B=>Bb as X, then in terms of chords,
A+B+E+X gives the big dim7 chord that Pete's talking about. It is possible to achieve this pedal/lever combo with X and E on the same knee if you have the geometry right, in fact I futzed around with it once but found it too uncomfortable to really use in the heat of battle.
Now from here, back out the B-pedal for A+E+X to give an Ab7 on strings 8-1. Then back out the A to give E+X gives an Ab9 with no 3rd. Finally, further backing off X raises the 9 to a minor 3rd, giving an Abm7, or if one considers the 10th string B as root (skipping the 9th string C), the B6 which forms the basis of the E9/B6 universal tuning with just the E-lever engaged.
That's four that come to mind immediately. Of course, there are no doubt lots of uses for different X/E lever setups.
[Edit note - as pointed out by a fellow forum member, I had my B-pedals and E-levers backwards in the 3rd paragraph ("Now from here ...") above. Pure dyslexia on my part, I didn't have a guitar with me when I posted this, sorry for the confusion.]
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 24 Sep 2012 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
This is really a meditation on loss versus gain. In many ways it's like a game of chess where you move one piece and the relationship to every other piece is changed. The question then becomes how to assess which piece is the best sacrifice. But, unlike chess, the pedal steel offers options for adding 'pieces'. Having said that, I decided to belay the idea of adding anything and instead to re-frame everything by changing the labeling from a search for a C note to a search for a minor 6th interval. It makes more sense that way. Interval numbers are so much easier to deal with than letters, since they remain the same no matter what key a song is in. In this particular case, I think it helped bring me closer to identifying the solution.
Come to find out, the 6th I have been looking for was right under my nose all this time, but not present in the most obvious way. The 6th in question magically showed up when I used my "Franklin" pedal in conjunction with the LKR! It didn't appear as if anyone in this thread seemed particularly taken with my altered "Franklin" pedal which has a B to Bb lower, and I found myself wondering if it was perhaps viewed as useless. No problem there, gentlemen, you guys are the experts and have probably tried everything under the sun, and yes, maybe the B to Bb change ain't worth much, but, (ironically perhaps) it turns out this is the very pedal that gave me that 6th I was looking for! The reason I didn't see it at first is that I was using an 8,6,5 grip, which meant that when the pedal was released it gave a minor 6th on the fifth string B as well as a 4th on the the sixth string G#. The 4th prevented me from hearing the 6th in proper context. When I changed the grip to 8,7,5 I suddenly could hear the 5th within the minor triad move up to the 6th interval.
There it was in plain sight all along. When the 5th of the minor triad is raised to the 6th degree, it occurs in relation to the minor chord but also produces the voicing for a IV chord with the major 3rd on the bottom. While I find this to be an elegant solution in my quest for a 6th, I imagine it probably produces yawns of boredom for the rest of the pedal steel community, because who in their right mind would tune their "Franklin" pedal this way. Rest assured there's nothing iffy about this FP tuning, it produces a rock solid chord voicing that works beautifully in the context of a song.
At this point, it wouldn't be so upsetting to lose my RKL G# to G change, because I've found a very good replacement with exactly the same voicing, but one that has more options. Will I get rid of it right away and return the RKL to its more traditional G# to F# lower? I don't know yet, because I'm not certain the G# to G change has told me all it has to say about copedent possibilities.
None of this means that all the great input I've received so far is moot. Rather, it means that I now have a great deal of information about problem solving for different copedents to pore over, examine, and contemplate in the months (and years) to come, all of it ammunition for giving me a way of better understanding the endless possibilities inherent in the pedal steel.
Richard, thanks for hangin' on during all my questions and countless moments of confusion. That's real stamina and dedication to the cause.
Lane, I wasn't able to find any links for Paul's video online. Would you happen to know of any?
Bent, I'll get this beast figured out yet. Only been at it a few months, eh, so it's a lot to absorb, but you've been a great help all along the perilous way.
Bengt, thanks for the great suggestions and especially for the copedent charts. They'll be really helpful in researching further copedent possibilities. First, though, I will convert them to the DETESTO Numbering System pioneered by Frankie Detesto back in the 1980's. (see Steel Guitarist, Issue #5 May 1980) It's a system that substitutes interval numbers for the ABCDEFG # + b system everyone else uses. I'm not sure why it didn't catch on with everyone on the forum because it's a brilliant approach that allows instant comparisons of dissimilar copedents. Maybe it's an idea whose time has not yet come, but here it is restated...
P.S. Dave and Ernest, for some reason I missed your posts. I will have to backtrack and go see what information you've added to the thread...man, I gotta tell y'all, my brain is near burstin' from all this stuff! It's a lot to absorb, but I dig every iota of it! I've been around six string guitars for 40 years, but I gotta say, them guitarists ain't never seen anything like THIS before! Going from six strings to 10 on the pedal steel is like going from riding a broom to riding the space shuttle! Or, as a friend of mine said earlier today after hearing my comment that playing the steel is like walking and chewing gum at the same time, "...it's more like walking, chewing gum, patting your head, and rubbing your stomach at the same time!"
Ben Banville wrote:This is really a meditation on loss versus gain.
Right. The number of pedals and levers you can install is limited. The number that you can reach quickly & easily is even more limited.
Suppose I have 2 choices for a pedal or lever. Choice #1 lets me play the same lick in 3 different places on the neck, delighting Lloyd Green. Choice #2 lets me play licks that can't be played at all with choice #1. I would go with #2.
You can easily bend Eminor to C major at fret 3 & fret 7 already. Do you want to give up more interesting choices just to be able to do it on open strings?
This is really a meditation on loss versus gain. ... Going from six strings to 10 on the pedal steel is like going from riding a broom to riding the space shuttle!
I'll tell you what. I more or less understand the basic ideas behind the dynamics of making a space shuttle fly, and I think we all agree that rocket science can be very impressive indeed. But I'd be even more impressed if you can show me how you can make it possible for a person to actually fly on just a broom.
I guess the relevance is that there's a lot of music to be made with even the most minimal of PSG setups. A lotta guys have no pedals or levers at all, and do plenty. But you can't do anything until you get down with the basics, which is why I think everyone is telling you to that your current setup is (actually way) more than adequate, and to seriously focus on playing the guitar as it stands until you get your bearings. I think if you meditate on this for a while, the results could even be more profound than any meditations on various setup tradeoffs.
Hey Dave, that was an interesting and somewhat complicated tour of the split tuning realm. I suppose to some folks this is all relatively straightforward and makes perfect sense, but I have a feeling I need to study this further before taking the plunge. There's more to this than meets the eye. For the time being, I'm thankful to be able to tune the steel by the venerable "straight no chaser" method, and for now, I don't use a tuner since the E9 open tuning is sonically self explanatory and practically tunes itself. (no need for a tuner till I play out w/ the steel and have to tune up in the din and chaos of nightclub cacophony) Regarding messing w/ the E9 standard, you said,
"I'm all for changing setups when you know what you're doing, but the basic E9 is the way it is for a reason - I personally think it would be smart to understand it before messing with it. You have much bigger fish to fry than fooling with setup changes. The basic E9 3+3 (ABC pedals, and E=>F, E=>Eb, and 2nd string D#=>D=>C# + 9th-string D=>C# change) are pretty much essential. There are a lot of other variations you can make, but I think you should take some time and figure out what your musical purpose is before you start hacking around with the guitar."
I agree w/ this and if you look at my copedent, you'll see I haven't altered these elements one iota. I think I instinctively left them alone because I could see the usefulness of these lever and pedal combinations. I did mess w/ the RKL G# to G as I said before, and have spent the weekend trying to leave this change OUT of the equation as a way of more fully assessing its usefulness, and I must admit I feel naked without it. I'd probably feel the same way if someone stole my B pedal. That G# to G just feels natural to me and I gotta have it in the copedent.
You also mentioned relocating my B to Bb lever. I have it on the VKL and it's perfect there, although it's a tad high and not as easy to reach as I'd like. (short legs) I plan to remedy the reach problem soon. I'd like to do it via Bent's machine skills, but will probably do a Banvillian cob job for the time being. Regarding the E/Eb E/F levers, I like 'em where they are for now, although at first I thought the lower should be on the LKL and the raise on the RKL purely for the sake of logic and consistency w/ left to right (up down) direction of things. As it turns out, I use the LKR a lot more than the LKL, so it's indeed in a more advantageous position. Someone on the knee lever thread said "I think even tougher would be using LKR and P1 together, or LKL and P2." This one is tricky, and my ankle actually doesn't bend that way so I have to "cheat" and employ the flatfoot method using the right edge of the shoe.
I liked Paul F's portion of the thread..."I see this whole pedal/knee lever placement issue like this.
Players have these changes split to two legs or have both on the left or right leg. Some have a few levers and some have as many as five levers on both legs if they choose. The options are abundant.
The only advantage of placement lies within an individual musicians mind. Players reach placement conclusions from all of their studies towards the musical direction(s) they seek to reach. Some players have the same needs and desires so there are many who agree with one direction of pedal placement over another. That point is moot because there are just as many players who disagree with any players setup.
The creative vision for finding the best path to utilize knee levers with the floor pedals is why almost all steel players use different positions for certain changes.
The only pedal positions that all steel players seem to completely agree on is the ABC floor pedal configuration. Even then, some prefer CBA to ABC, but all agree that BAC, BCA, CAB and ACB would not work as well.
I believe, until it becomes crystal clear for having these, or any other changes, in a universal position to accomplish all the musical ideas individuals desire, then and only then, could there be a solid reason to say one position has an advantage over another for everyone.
I personally hope that never happens. The different pedal setups are key reasons that helps seperate an individuals musical voice from the next guy.
Paul"
Ernest, I see you employ the G# to G change in your copedent. Nice to see someone else out there thinks it's useful. One of my favorite things to do w/ this change is, beginning w/ a 10,6,5, grip on an F# relative minor, changing the grip to 10,7,5, while still at the 2nd fret and sliding to the 3rd fret while switching from RKL to LKR Eb. Presto, I get to the IV chord and the slide from relative minor to IV was nice and smooth. Using the A pedal to B pedal VI to IV on the 5th fret is nice too, but there's a completely different and less musically complex transition from Vi to IV in this position. I guess it all depends on what kind of approach one wants to use.
"Suppose I have 2 choices for a pedal or lever. Choice #1 lets me play the same lick in 3 different places on the neck, delighting Lloyd Green. Choice #2 lets me play licks that can't be played at all with choice #1. I would go with #2."...Choice 2 is my preference also, but for now I opt for choice 1. just to be able to render relatively "normal" voicings suits me just fine at this early stage of development. No sense in getting esoteric if I don't know how to get basic. I'll get there eventually.
Richard, thanks for the PF link.
Pete "I like the diminished chord you get with the A+[B>Bb]+[E>D#]. It's easier with the B>Bb and E>D# on separate knees. Thanks, gonna work on that one.
Dave, be sure to look me up if you're in the Shelburne Falls area.
I did mess w/ the RKL G# to G as I said before, and have spent the weekend trying to leave this change OUT of the equation as a way of more fully assessing its usefulness, and I must admit I feel naked without it. I'd probably feel the same way if someone stole my B pedal. That G# to G just feels natural to me and I gotta have it in the copedent.
If that is the case, then you should have it on your guitar. That's how I feel about the lever that lowers string 6 to F#. I would never own a guitar without that change. I can get the G for the E minor by using the split if I want, but honestly, I don't think I ever do. There are so many other ways to get minors that I think are better (remember, just my opinion based on my playing style). I used to lower both G#'s to G on my first pedal steel, but only because it was a ZB Custom S10, and it came stock with 5 pedals and 2 knee levers (later I had 3 more added). One of the pedals was the G#'s to G. Don't remember if I ever used it, but it obviously wasn't important enough for me to have it on the D10 ZB I ordered after that one.
I am all for someone having changes on their guitar to make them play better in the style they wish to play.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 .Playing for 53 years and still counting.
Ben, when I want a G on 6, I have that on the split.
And I also like what Paul said about the standardization. If you think like me, my lever arrangement is nearly the only one that almost works.
(Es on the left, LKV Bs-A#, RKL 1-G and 6-F#, RKR 2-D/C# and 9-D)
I say almost because I sometimes find myself holding RKL with my leg and using my hand on RKR or vice versa.
But others on here need to use other changes concurrently, so they rearrange so their ideas can come outta their guitars.
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Richard, one of your comments caught my attention... "There are so many other ways to get minors that I think are better." I'd appreciate it if you shared some of those variations with me. (anyone else on this thread feel free to do the same) I realize some of these minors may be based on different copedents, but please do share any minors which are possible within the "confines" of a more or less standard copedent. I initially thought the standard E9 tuning seemed deficient in the minor chord department. (I based this on knowing what a large number of minor inversions are possible on six string guitar...endless, really) It would please me immensely to know the pedal steel is as versatile with minor chords as the six string is.
I happen to be one who thinks it makes sense to add the G lowers to the above list.
Assuming one has the F raises, one can slide between all three inversions of the major triad using any of the basic grips. And, of course, move to other chords in various ways from any of the three positions.
But without the G lowers, you only get two out of the three basic-grip positions for minor triads. It's very useful to fill that "hole" in the tuning. With the G lowers, you have a parallel minor in the basic grips for each major. (Like most changes, there are other things the G lowers can be used for.)
On guitars with only four levers, because I also value the 6th string F# lower, I have that as my lever #4, with half-stop for G (G could be done by "split" also).
Sans a G lever, the basic grip minors are (I'll discuss third fret, just because):
E minor, A pedal (2nd string has a 2, 1st string has a 4, for melodic content)
A minor, BC pedals (2nd has a 6; this is the least interesting and least handy common minor, if you ask me)
B minor, drop the Es. This is HANDY. 2nd string dropped (or the A pedal) gives a 4, 1st string gives a 7th. With the harmonic strings, this one has pretty melody content.
C minor, A,B,X. I rarely use it, B minor is more useful only a fret away.
D minor, F lever, A pedal, drop 2 ½. I never use it, don't ask me how useful it is.
I use A pedal and D# lever almost exclusively.
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
I think what Bob wrote above profoundly shows how important it is to figure just how much you can do with just the basic pedals and levers - really, just A, B, C, and E=>Eb. I'll just add these two easy ones to what Bob gave, as he does, thinking relative to the open C at the 8th fret:
No pedals/levers at all: Gm on strings 10, 9, 7, 5 (root on 10 and 1)
A+B+X: Fm with same grips as A+B-based Fmaj, and is particularly useful toggling in/out from that Fmaj.
None of this considers what one can get by slanting the bar.
I also think the G#=>G change is useful, and for more than just getting G for an E, G, B minor chord. I especially use the augmented chord one gets from G#=>G + E=>Eb, but I actually prefer getting it from G#=>F# + E=>Eb and toggling in/out from that major chord using the split with the B-pedal. In fact, most of the things I want from that change I can get from splitting G#=>F# with the B-pedal, but not everything. Once you get past the basic pedals and levers, it really does come down to tradeoffs.
For some reason I find it easier to differentiate between the minor chords and grips if I place them all in one key (any key). That way, a chart like the one below immediately shows how the same chords differ from one another in grip, pedal/lever combination, and location from one another. The distance between them is always the same, so once that relationship is memorized, there are a lot of choices available for how one wishes to voice any given minor chord.
Am 1st fret LKR 8,6,5,
Am 3rd fret A+B 7,6,5,
Am 3rd fret B+C 7,6,5, 6,5,4, 4,3,2,
Am 3rd fret A+B+RKR 9,7,6,
Am 3rd fret B+C+RKR 9,7,6,
Am 5th fret RKL 8,6,5,
Am 6th fret LKR + FP 8,7,5,
Am 8th fret A Pedal 8,6,5,
Am 10th fret No Pedals 9,7,5,
Bob, it looks as if your chart corresponds with the placement of minors in the sequence of Modes:
1.Ionian (the major scale)
2.Dorian (minor sounding mode, characteristic note is the maj 6th)
3.Phrygian (minor sounding mode, characteristic note is the flat 2nd)
4.Lydian (major sounding mode, characteristic note is the augmented 4th)
5.Mixylodian (major sounding mode, characteristic note is the flat 7th)
6.Aeolian (natural minor scale - flat 3rd, flat 6th, flat 7th)
7.Locrian (very unstable sounding mode, it's characteristic notes are the flat 2nd and flat 5th)
Lane, I liked your idea of finding melody notes from the 1st and 2nd strings in relation to the minor chord itself. I listened to these relationships using the above chart and it's quite fascinating.
Ben, if you're a practitioner of those Tommy White unison/peel away licks (yeah, a lot of other folks use 'em, but that's who springs to my mind), they sound prettier in the minor chords (both the A pedal and D# lever positions, but especially the D# lever) than they do on the major.
I've found enough fun minor stuff that I've never missed that change I've never had, except on 1.
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Well Ransom, normally I would agree, but I think it's coffee for me this early in the morning. I rarely drink here at home, but a good dose of Amaretto would go good in the coffee this morning.
Ben.. Looks like others really got into the "other" minors I spoke about. I am one of those that likes a lot of pedals and knee levers for those little extra changes that that help shape my style, as long as I don't disrupt the "standard" changes. I would have every one of the "extra" changes that all other players have if I could. They must have them for a reason. But, the physical limitations of the guitars prevent this. The moral of this little story is, if the lowering of the G#'s to G fit into your way of thinking and the style you want to develop, then by all means you should have that change on the guitar.
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 .Playing for 53 years and still counting.
Hey Lane, speakin' of Tommy White, I have a DVD by him, "Hot Licks and Cool Tips for E9". Fabulous playing, but WAY over my head for now. He plays too fast for me to steal his licks, and doesn't slow anything down enough, or explain what he's doing, but it's great stuff nonetheless!
Remember what it was like when you were first learning...although, if you were born with bar already in hand and fingerpicks in place, like some, then it was an easy ride right from the get go. LLoyd Green started when he was seven, I began at the ripe young age of sixty-two...slight difference there, but no complaints whatsoever, I'm lovin' every minute of it and having the time of my life. It's amazing how four months on a new instrument can completely change one's life. This infernal barn stormin' pedal-and-lever-laden contraption is a joy to navigate!
It would be interesting to hear stories from forum members about how bumpy the ride was during their first six months on the steel. This might inspire many, and strengthen their resolve to Hang In There whilst giving 'em a sense they're not alone in the 10 string jungle.
