I need a C note...in the Copedent rather than the wallet...

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 18 Sep 2012 7:32 am

Fellow steel guitar players, I'm not askin' to borrow a hundred bucks. I'm just lookin' for a C note in my copedent.

When I first got my brand new BenRom steel last may, I felt compelled to bastardize the copedent right from the start by changing the RKL so it lowers G# to G instead of G# to F#. This gives me an instant relative minor chord in the same position one finds it on the 6 string guitar. I LOVE that lever! I use it ALL the time despite the number of other minor voicings I've found on the neck. I use that lever almost as much as i use the A+B pedals! Did I say I LOVE that lever? I could live without it, but I would always feel as if the most vital minor voicing is missing.

However, when I hit the RKL for that sweet minor chord, I don't have anything consistently usable to move voices within the chord while the RKL remains pressed. I can add the LKL with the RKL to make a nice 7th chord, or with the LKR it gives some sort of interesting diminished 7th. The FP (also altered so it tunes G# to G) can be employed yielding a strange chord I haven't identified yet. Also the C pedal and the A pedal with the RKL yield usable though less friendly chords.

So here's where the C note comes in...when I hit the RKL at the 12th fret for an Em, and then press the A pedal at "half mast", (meaning not floored all the way, but rather at half it's travel distance) I get a C note on the B string instead of a C#, it turns the Em into a C major chord! it's nothing short of fabulous, and gives an excellent and very usable voice motion to the RKL minor chord. but...better yet, when I add the LKL to the RKL w/ A pedal at half mast, I get an F major chord. how cool is that?

So, you may be asking yourselves the question, why doesn't he just press the A pedal at half mast and get on with the song? answer: because it's very difficult to get it right on the money every time, and if you overshoot, %#$@(*$^%!!! what a gawdawfull trainwreck of a sound emerges! it's enough to get all the dogs in town howlin' in pain for the rest of the night!

The C note puzzle...I would like to solve this copedent dilemma in the most elegant way possible. Although I know it's an option to re-purpose some lever or pedal so i can somehow gain that C note, for now, I don't wish to alter the rest of the steel and move it too far away from the Emmons Copedent. In my humble estimation, the way to get to the C note is a machine shop solution...does anyone have any thoughts about how I can resolve this? here are the 4 options I've come up with...

1. add a knee lever.
2. add a floor pedal.
3. add a VKL.
4. keep using the A pedal at half-mast method.

I would appreciate any feedback and edification I can get on this.

Thanks,

Ben

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Sep 2012 7:45 am

My suggestion: add a zero pedal and a vertical knee levers. Put the G# to G on the zero pedal, F# to G natural on a vertical, and B to Bb on one of your knee levers, but don't put the B to Bb change on the same knee that lowers your E strings to D#, as you will eventually want to use those 2 changes together.

Then tune the splits between the B-Bb change and the A pedal. You will have the C note in the copedant, and a minor chord with the pedals down combined with the knee lever.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Sep 2012 10:21 am

Do a split tuning to get that C note by using the A pedal and a half stop lower on your 5th and maybe 10th strings. That C note is standard in common E9 set ups.

You can find another minor chord in the pedal down position by hitting that 5th string half step split tuned lower while the A and B pedals are being used.

....it lowers G# to G instead of G# to F#. This gives me an instant relative minor chord...

That is not the relative minor chord. It is a minor chord but not the relative one.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 18 Sep 2012 11:30 am

I have relatives that are minors, but that's another story.

I just got done changing things around on my tuning. I had the B to Bb change on my vertical, and while I love that change, I didn't care for it on the vertical. And I NEVER used it to split the A pedal (I can half pedal pretty good, so I didn't use the split). I do like getting an accurate C note for the augmented chord, so I added the B to C (E9th) change to my first C6th pedal (and removed the C6th changes - didn't have enough rods to do both). So, I got to thinking about moving or getting rid of the B to Bb change so I could put my F#'s to G's back on my vertical. I decided on putting the 5th string B to Bb on the pedal(P5) next to my A pedal(P4). I added a split rod to it so I can hit both this pedal and the A pedal and get the C note, and still have the B to Bb change.

If you have a split tuner on string 6, you can lower it to F# (more useful in opinion than lowering to G) and split it to get the G note for your minor chord.

My copedent now is:

[tab]
LKL1 LKL2 LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 5 RKL RKR

F#..G#.........G
D#..E......................................C#/D
G#.............................A
E.......D#.........F......F#
B.........................C#.......C#..Bb
G#.............................A.................F#
F#............G........G#
E.......D#.........F
D......................E
B..................................C#
[/tab]

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 18 Sep 2012 8:32 pm

I'm with Bob - put a split tuner on your 5th and 10th strings ... activate both the A pedal and the B-Bb vertical and you have a C note - tuneable!

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 19 Sep 2012 6:05 am

Hi Ben, so that makes two more guys recommend doing what we discussed last night on Skype. But then you told me, if I remember correctly, that you also wanted that C note if you slide down 3 frets or what it was. Let the knowledgeable folks here know your thoughts and they will come up with something.

FWIW, FYI..the BenRom has split tuners on every string
Also, you should know that the copedent is basic Emmons on ABC plus PF on the 4th pedal where Ben has changed the lowering of 5&10 from B to A to B to Bb
KL's: LKL - raise E's to F
LKR E's to Eb
RKL G# to G on 6th string.(changed from G# to F#)
RKR: lower 2 and 9 the usual half tone/full tone w/ half stop
LKV: Lower5&10 B to Bb

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Sep 2012 6:24 am

I'm sure you love your guitar and I'm not recommending changing it but, just for the record, I'll mention that the Infinity guitar that Frank Carter builds actually has a 1/2 stop on the A pedal! Nice feature.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Sep 2012 8:15 am

FWIW, FYI..the BenRom has split tuners on every string

That's what I thought. If ya got 'em, use 'em.

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 19 Sep 2012 6:32 pm

Thank you all for the great feedback provided so far. There's a lot there to think about, and it will take me some time to sort it out and have it all make sense. The pedal steel is such a complicated beast! Really though, all I'm looking for at this time is to be able to raise a B to a C. Below is my current copedent, which I should have included in my previous posting for the sake of clarity.

I changed the lower on the RKL so it goes from G# to G instead of G# to F#. This way, I'm able to play a RELATIVE MINOR three frets lower in relation to the standard no pedal root chord position. This gives the pedal steel neck layout a similar feel to the six string guitar neck layout, something which is of importance to me since I'm transitioning from six string the pedal steel.

The B string lower on the Franklin Pedal is B to Bb instead of B to A, and was arrived at by mistake. I liked the way it opened up possibilities for a different minor chord voicing so I've left it this way for the time being, but may return it to standard tuning in the future.

THE REASON i want to figure out a copedent that yields a C note is so that when I'm playing an Em using the RKL, I can introduce VOICE MOTION by raising the B to C. Also, kicking in the LKL when the C note is engaged yields an F chord. I find this to be an interesting enough possibility that it's worth pursuing until I find a solution.

LKL LKV LKR A B C D RKL RKR

F#...............................................
D#........................................C#,D...
G#........................A...........G..........
E......F.........Eb...........F#.................
B...........Bb........C#......C#..Bb.............
G#........................A.......F#..G..........
F#...............................................
E......F.........Eb..............................
D.........................................C#.....
B...........Bb........C#..........Bb.............

I've been working on i-iv-v minor chord positions. This is what I have come up withso far. I arbitrarily chose Em, Am, Bm as a way of organizing these progressions in different positions and pedal combinations. all grips are 8, 6,5,4, except when using B+C pedal combination which is 9,7,6,5,4,3.

Em Open position RKL
Am 1st fret LKR
Bm 3rd fret LKR

Em Open position RKL
Am 5th fret RKL
Bm 7th fret RKL

Em 1st fret LKR + FP
Am 1st fret LKR
Bm 3rd fret LKR

Em 3rd fret A Pedal
Am 1st fret LKR
Bm 3rd fret LKR

Em 3rd fret A Pedal
Am 3rd fret B + C Pedal 9,7,6,5,4,3.
Bm 5th fret B + C Pedal

Em 3rd fret A Pedal
Am 5th fret RKL
Bm 7th fret RKL

Em 8th fret RKL
Am 5th fret RKR
Bm 7th fret RKR

Em 8th fret LKR
Am 6th fret LKR + FP
Bm 8th fret LKR + FP

Em 10th fret B + C Pedal
Am 8th fret A Pedal
Bm 10th fret A pedal

Em 12th fret RKL
Am 8th fret A pedal
Bm 10th fret A Pedal

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 19 Sep 2012 6:56 pm

oops! Somehow the copedent keeps getting re-formatted. sorry about that! So much for clarity

.............LKL......LKV......LKR......A......B......C......D.......RKL......RKR

F#.........................................................................................................
D#..............................................................................................C#,D...
G#.......................................................A.........................G....................
E...........F........................Eb.........................F#.....................................
B........................Bb....................C#.............C#....Bb.............................
G#.......................................................A...............F#......G....................
F#..........................................................................................................
E...........F.........................Eb..................................................................
D.................................................................................................C#.......
B.........................Bb....................C#.....................Bb.............................

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Sep 2012 8:22 pm

THE REASON i want to figure out a copedent that yields a C note is so that when I'm playing an Em using the RKL, I can introduce VOICE MOTION by raising the B to C. Also, kicking in the LKL when the C note is engaged yields an F chord. I find this to be an interesting enough possibility that it's worth pursuing until I find a solution.

You can get that motion on string 5 & 10 by half pedaling the A pedal. Takes practice, but it is a very valuable thing.

And, having the G# lowered to G, the B raised to C, and the E raised to F, DOES NOT give you an F chord. It gives part of an F7 (F - C - G).

The relative minor (6m) is so easy to get. The A pedal in the no pedal position gives it to you. That seems a whole lot easier that trying to re-invent the tuning to be "similar" to a guitar. I say, learn the tuning as it was developed.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Sep 2012 10:37 pm

You can get that C note "voice motion" all over the neck already.

Em 3rd fret A Pedal

B pedal

Em 8th fret LKR

release LKR

Em 10th fret B + C Pedal

2nd st 1/2 step lower and 9th string with no levers.

I use the B to Bb change on the 5th string only. I use that change so much I put it on my RKL. That C note split is great for so many chords also.

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 20 Sep 2012 6:31 am

Richard, thanks for the solid advice to keep the tuning in its conventional/traditional format. "I say, learn the tuning as it was developed." (also thanks for pointing out it's not an F, but an F7...I gotta pay better attention to the little details) That's probably the best advice I'll ever get! I must confess I do have a tendency to stray from the norm and explore uncharted waters, whether or not I know what I'm doing. For some reason, I derive pleasure by going into the 'laboratory' and asking "what if" regarding ALL things I'm currently investigating. Of course, I realize the value of a conventional approach to learning pedal steel by exploring the letter of the law exactly as it's written in whatever traditional sources of information are available, whether it be books, CDs, DVDs, or hands on instruction.

At the same time, researching the pedal steel poses many questions for which there are no easy answers. One is, are all the chord voicings my ears are looking for readily available in standard tuning. Another is, if not, how will I approach solving the chord voicing and voice movement dilemma? Should I approach the standard copedent as if it's set in stone? Yet another (much more dangerous question) is, shall I commit the cardinal sin, nay, the heresy, of making changes to the accepted standard tuning? I know to some, it's indeed the act of a heretic to make copedent changes without fully knowing the harmonic lay o' the land. I guess I got me some heretic genes. To this third and most important question, the answer that comes up is YES, carefully explore making changes, but only if it's fun! There's the crux of it. FUN! Enjoying each moment in the search wherever it leads. If any aspect of learning to play an instrument yields a certain measure of additional pleasure, then I (or any student) am more likely to incorporate this along with all the rest of the theory thereby experiencing a greater sense of connection with the instrument. It's one way of becoming more diligent and spending more time with one's nose to the grindstone. Am I having fun yet on the steel? You bet! The best part of it all is being able to get feedback on the forum from erudite scholars of the pedal steel such as yourself, Richard. That is priceless! Thanks!

Bob, thanks a lot for your input. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that hitting the RKL and dropping the G# notes to G yields a "relative" minor, rather, it yields a minor of the major chord the bar is on...A becomes A minor, and of course, the relative minor is 3 frets lower. What I like about this RKL minor, (in this case let's say F#m since we're talking the key of A) is that the bass note is an F#, whereas with the A pedal F#m, the bass note of the chord has the same A bass note as the I chord uses. To my ears, this is a little bland, and lowering the bass note to F# gives a more definite presence to the relative minor. Having said that, the CONTRAST between F#m at the 2nd fret w/ RKL, F#m at the 5th fret w/ A pedal, AND F#m at the 10th fret w LKR introduces a dynamic difference between the three positions. I like having more choices regarding where and how I voice a chord. It makes the music more interesting to the ear. Besides the three voicings above, I have also located the following other minor areas:

F#m 3rd fret w/ LKR + FP 8,6,5, (this voicing is identical to F#m 2nd fret RKL, yet allows voice movement within the chord by toggling FP or LKR)

F#m 7th fret, no pedals, 9,7,5, (while this voicing is identical to the A pedal 5th fret voicing, it introduces internal voice motion with the A pedal, FP pedal, and RKR.)

F#m 12th fret A+B + RKR 9,7,6,5, (this one has interesting voice motion from toggling A or B or RKR)

By the way, Bob, you said "I use the B to Bb change on the 5th string only. I use that change so much I put it on my RKL. That C note split is great for so many chords also." What happened to the E raise or lower on that lever?

Mike and Paddy, those are interesting possibilities worth giving some serious thought to. Of course, my master mechanic Bent if 500 miles away, so I'd do well to think this thing through before committing to any major changes in the pedalogical continuum.

Bent, you da man! Your help and product support along every step of the way has been invaluable! Thanks!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Sep 2012 7:07 am

By the way, Bob, you said "I use the B to Bb change on the 5th string only. I use that change so much I put it on my RKL. That C note split is great for so many chords also." What happened to the E raise or lower on that lever?

My E raises and lowers are on my left knee.

What you are going through with changing your set up is something that happens to most all new players. It is productive up to a point.

I got 2 important lessons early on that improved my playing more than anything:

I was doing the "out of the box" changing my copedent thing and bringing my steel down to Billy Coopers shop in Virginia so he could make my ideas work. After a couple visits Billy looked up and said "If you spent the time on top of your guitar that spend under it you would be a better player."

Th other important advice came from Lloyd Green. I ran into him at a weekend Jeffran College thing in Nashville. I was sitting with him watching him play and asking him questions. After a bit he stopped and told me that if I really want to play I should try to play any lick or chord I know on three different places on the neck with whatever copedent I have on there. That is a key to understanding the neck.

Take this for what it's worth because this is just my opinion but I feel that the standard E9 tuning is elegant and should have everything you are looking for on it already. Its logic is how all the positions relate to each other in a diatonic way up and down the neck. By thinking of the bar as a capo that you can get all these new chords if you just had a new lever you may be degrading that elegance and confusing the real issue of learning the neck.

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 20 Sep 2012 8:02 am

Thanks Bob. There's some wisdom in them words! Especially "play any lick or chord I know on three different places on the neck with whatever copedent I have on there. That is a key to understanding the neck." In many ways, this is similar to what I'm trying to do with the steel. But first, I want to produce a good map of the territory. In establishing that map, I guess I've more or less stayed within the lines on the main highway while also taking a couple of short detours along the way to get a taste of "the scenic route". It may sound as if my intention is to radically deviate from the standard copedent, or that I'm hell bent on trying to re-invent the wheel. It's really not that way. There are just a couple of little things I wanted to do to expand the possibilities and bring things on the neck into a bit better perspective. I have no intention of making huge copedent changes and ending up chasing my tail and never getting a well grounded foundation on the steel. I know about that insidious little trap. I wonder, though, is it too much to ask for the simple addition a C note (on a lever or pedal that makes sense) when one has only been playing the steel for 3 months? Nah! Probably not. It must be an important enough addition to the copedent or you wouldn't have dedicated your RKL to it.

In a similar way, I also felt strongly about re-tuning my RKL so it changes from G# to G, and have found this to be such an efficient and good sounding change that I use it all the time. By the way, I was looking at "Convention Copedents" in Steel Guitarist, and out of 23 copedents (some quite esoteric looking) I couldn't find any two the same, but I did notice Bob Maickel thought enough of the G# to G change that he put it on his RKL. For now, I just want to be able to go from C to shining C without doing the A pedal half mash boogie, useful as it might be.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Sep 2012 9:14 am

The best part of it all is being able to get feedback on the forum from erudite scholars of the pedal steel such as yourself, Richard. That is priceless! Thanks!

Don't know if this was meant as sarcasm, but that is not the way to keep people wanting to help you.

Overlooking that, you will notice that I do have a pedal to give that C note, well now I do it with 2 pedals next to each other with a split, although I want it for a different reason than you. I can understand you not wanting to learn to half pedal the A pedal, but in time you will. There is so much stuff you can do with when playing melody . We all learned to do it (well almost all). I wouldn't give up a more useful change for the C raise. There are reasons you don't see the top pros with some of these "out of the box" changes. You rarely see them lower G#'s to G. A few do, but not many. They just don't find them advantageous or necessary. Don't think for a minute that someone else hasn't already thought of those changes, but abandoned them.

But the bottom line is, set it up how you want/need so you can play whatever styles of music you want to.

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 20 Sep 2012 9:58 am

Hey Richard, no sarcasm intended whatsoever. Most forum members are light years ahead of me, and many have seen it all and done it all, so I look up to them and appreciate the depth of information that flows in from the forum fountainhead. What you guys can do on the steel amazes me, so pardon the enthusiasm in my response. I've only been at this "Redneck Table Harp" game a few months, and still find it totally overwhelming. If there's a light at the end of the tunnel I don't see it just yet. Think back on how it was, eh. I suppose there are some out there for whom it comes easy in a natural born sort of way. The rest of us have to work harder. Anyway, I've only recently started practicing the A pedal half mash and it always startles and amazes me when I can hit it dead on. Regarding the C note, if it was on a lever or pedal it would make it easier to access it quickly for licks and passing notes. The C appears pretty quick at half mast as well, but not so reliably yet. As far as the G# to F# which is how my RKL was set up initially, I didn't find myself making copious use of it in the beginning, which is why I decided to sacrifice it for the lower to G. It could be that I don't fully know what I passed up by losing that F#, so I'm wondering what I may have missed. I need to better understand the split tuning method as well before I can fully understand what is being said in this thread. Thanks again for the feedback.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Sep 2012 1:17 pm

No problem Ben. Why don't you try putting the C on your 4th pedal for now, seeing as how that pedal as you have it now isn't very useful. That would help you decide and you can always change it back if you want. By your description of what you want to do with it along with the lever that lowers the G#'s to G, a pedal would work. Although, I personally would put the G# lowers on the pedal and the C notes on the lever. The "Franklin" pedal is kid of cool, but not necessary. I removed it from my guitar because I wasn't really using it.

I still recommend you start learning to half pedal the A pedal. That may prove to be good enough for you. It really isn't that hard.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 20 Sep 2012 2:21 pm

Ben, if you take Richard's advice and change the PF to do the C change, use whatever rod(s) you already have there and if you have some left over, simply just loosen off the tuning nuts so they don't work any more. That way you have an easier conversion back to the PF.(The way I see it anyway)
Great thread! You're getting some good solid advice here, Ben.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Sep 2012 2:55 pm

I meant to post what Bent just said, but had an urgent thing come up while posting and forgot.

Ben Banville · Post by **Ben Banville** » 20 Sep 2012 3:58 pm

Richard, I was again looking at your copedent. It does strike me as being somewhat non traditional. Is this what they call the Day set up? Just wondering how long it took you to arrive at this particular configuration, and what motivated you to organize in the particular way. I realize the answer to such a question may be longer than you have time to spend typing, so, not a problem if you don't wish to tackle it. Also, regarding the Franklin Pedal, I've tried to find threads on the forum which illuminate its purpose and provide examples of why it's useful. Didn't find anything, really, which is why I have it tuned as I do. It's not as useless a tuning as it may appear to be, and, if the Franklin pedal is as useless as some have implied, then nothing is lost by having it tuned as it is. Still, I wonder how it came to be that someone of Paul Franklin's stature invents a new pedal, then it gets named after him, then everybody ends up with one, but nobody seems to know what it's for. Sounds like PSM to me...Pedalus Steelus Mysterioso! Many players who already know the ropes don't have the same kinds of questions neophytes do regarding copedents. The still wet behind the ears greenhorns all seek answers to things like what is the purpose of tuning a pedal or lever in one pitch versus another, etc. But I guess answers to those types of questions are found along the way through trial and error.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 20 Sep 2012 5:34 pm

I believe Paul has a video explaining it and giving some of its uses.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Sep 2012 6:38 pm

I have the "talk" CD of Paul's explaining that pedal. As I remember, most of it was on the combination of that pedal and the E to D# lever. That gives a real pretty V7 chord at the no pedals position. That and the lick that goes:
[tab]
5___12A---12---12FP---12
6___12B---12---12FP---12
7_______________________
8___12----12---12-----12
[/tab]
and it's variations are all I could find that was useful, and it doesn't sound as good as just using the lever that lowers 6 a whole tone for that lick. It's been a while since I listened to it and it may go into more uses, but I remember being real disappointed in it. I'll see if I can find it and report back.

Ben... My tuning periodically changes on pedals and levers that are not the "standard". I play the Day setup as you noted. My guitar originally came with 8 pedals (starting with what is now P2) and 10 knee levers (6 on E9 and 6 on C6, but I removed a second LKR on the C6th because it was almost impossible to hit). I added pedal 1 (some call it pedal zero) to the left of my C pedal (now P2) for experimenting with changes. I had the Franklin pedal on P5. I finally moved the Franklin Pedal to P1 and just left P5 working the C6th neck. I rarely used the Franklin pedal, and decided to try the changes that are there now. Many like to raise string 7 to G# on a lever, so I put it on P1 along with raising string 9 to E. I saw those changes on someone's tuning that uses it to give an E major chord all the way from string 3 to 10. Useful for power chord rhythm playing and strumming.

Within the last 6 months or so, I switched string brands and they had a different string gauge on string 5 and string 10. This threw off my half pedaling ability, and I decided to put the B to C changes on 5 & 10 on P5. I use it to get the E augmented chord as I used to do when I could half pedal the A pedal accurately. I have switched back to the regular strings I use, and the half pedal ability is back. But, I liked the B to C change so much, I left it on P5.

Just yesterday, I decided that I love the B to Bb change, but never use it to split the A pedal when it was on my vertical kneee lever (way too awkward and uncomfortable to hit with just the A pedal) , so I moved it to P5 and put a rod on it so I could split it with my A pedal (P4). So, now I can use the B to Bb change by itself, or hit both the A pedal (P4) and P5 and get the tunable C note that I used to have on P5. This weekend I will get to try it out "on the battlefield".

The still wet behind the ears greenhorns all seek answers to things like what is the purpose of tuning a pedal or lever in one pitch versus another, etc. But I guess answers to those types of questions are found along the way through trial and error.

True statement. Those of us that lower string 6 to F#, constantly get blasted by others that say, "why do I need to lower that string to F# when the next string down is the same note?". As I always say, it's not the note that matters, it's what you can do with it. There is a lot of great, usable movement on string 6 with that change that you can't get with the 7th string, and not even with raising string 7 to G# (the opposite movement as the G# to F# lever) because of not being able to "slide" into the A note from the F# in one movement. That knee lever is my 3rd most used lever after the E raise and E lower levers, and used more than the 2nd string lever.

Any more questions, I (any many others) will be happy to answer.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 21 Sep 2012 2:24 am

Looking at Ben Banville's setup, easiest solution to me to get that C note would be to swap LKV (B's - Bb) and RKL (G#'s - G)

You wont be able use B's - Bb together with string 2 and 9 to C# at the same time anymore but the option to use G# - G together with RKR(2 & 9 to C#) is a far more useful combination imo.

option 1
[tab]
LKL LKV LKR A B C D RKL RKR
F#
D# D-C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# Bb
G# G A
F#
E F Eb
D C#
B C# Bb
[/tab]

If you dont want to have B-Bb split with the A pedal to give you the desired C note, one option would be to change the 5th string to pull to B - C instead and maybe move 10 B-Bb to 9th string D-C. Some really cool things that can be done with that.

option 2
[tab]
LKL LKV LKR A B C D RKL RKR
F#
D# E D-C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# C
G# G A A
F#
E F Eb
D C C#
B C# A
[/tab]

My suggestion for the D pedal on option 2 is optional as it is intended work really ok within that setup only.

My other 2 favorite changes on the D pedal would be either 5&6 up a whole tone G#-A# and B-C# like this

[tab]
LKL LKV LKR A B C D RKL RKR
F#
D# D-C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# C# Bb
G# G A A#
F#
E F Eb
D C#
B C# Bb
[/tab]

Or strings 1&7 F#-F (not a common change as far as I know but I do like it very much in that position.)

[tab]
LKL LKV LKR A B C D RKL RKR
F# F
D# D-C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# Bb
G# G A
F# F
E F Eb
D C#
B C# Bb
[/tab]

No matter how one does it there is always a compromise with sacrifising some combinations in favor of others. How you move from one chord to the next is what really matters and some pedal lever combinations do sound smoother/better than others compared to changing strings to do same chord changes. Aint no rights or wrongs, just a lot of options how to.

Hope I didnt confuse with too many options here.

Bengt Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 21 Sep 2012 7:16 am

You don't need to change your pedal/lever setup one iota to get the C note crisply and easily. Bent says you have split tuning screws on every string, so all you need to do is to set your A-pedal and your B=>Bb lever to tune the split, as mentioned above. It's really easy to do this with split tuning screws. First, read this thread on split tuning, and especially pay attention to Patrick Laffrat's great yellow/purple/blue diagram - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=104579

Now, read Jeff Lampert's post below this diagram on how you do the adjustment. For example, on the 5th string:

1. First, make sure your guitar is in tune and your 5th string split tuning screw is backed out enough so that it's not affecting anything.

2. Second, tune the 5th string raise (A-pedal B=>C#) using the nylon tuning nut at the endplate.

3. Third, tune the combination of your A-pedal and your B=>Bb lever to the C note by adjusting the B=>Bb lever lowering nylon nut at the endplate. If this combination is in tune, when you hit your B=>Bb lever alone, your Bb should be flat.

4. Finally, with your B=>Bb lever fully engaged, gradually screw in the 5th string split tuning screw until you start to hear the pitch raise. Carefully and slowly continue to turn the split tuning screw tighter until your Bb note is perfect.

Now just check your four 5th string notes with all these pedals and levers:

Open 5th string: B
A-pedal only: C#
B=>Bb lever only: Bb
A-pedal + B=>Bb lever: C

They should be all spot on. If they're not, start over and make sure you don't have any other problems like over-tuned nylon tuning nuts. I doubt that will be the case with a brand new BenRom unless you have over-tightened them.

Now you should be able to get that C note in-place by simply engaging both your A-pedal and B=>Bb lever. I use that all the time either moving from open E to A minor, or moving from A major to A minor. Of course, you can get the open-tuning relative minor by moving 3 frets down, but on E9, you can get that so much easier and more fluidly by simply engaging the A-pedal, as Bob H. says. There are lots of other places where split tunings can really open up options. For example, I don't have a specific G note lever on my guitars, but split a G#=>F# full-tone lower with the B-pedal G#=>A raise to get G when engaged together. This way, I have F#, G, and G# available in-place, and it's also useful for a bunch of things.

I'm all for changing setups when you know what you're doing, but the basic E9 is the way it is for a reason - I personally think it would be smart to understand it before messing with it. You have much bigger fish to fry than fooling with setup changes. The basic E9 3+3 (ABC pedals, and E=>F, E=>Eb, and 2nd string D#=>D=>C# + 9th-string D=>C# change) are pretty much essential. There are a lot of other variations you can make, but I think you should take some time and figure out what your musical purpose is before you start hacking around with the guitar. My opinion.

On your pedal/lever setup - if you make this A-pedal/B=>Bb-lever split, then if you make a change to the guitar, the first one you should make is to set your guitar to put your B=>Bb lever and your E=>Eb lever on opposite knees. There is a large vocabulary of cool voicings you can make combining A-pedal, B-pedal, E=>Eb-lever, and B=>Bb-lever moves. There are basically two ways to achieve this - one, keep your E=>Eb on LKR and move B=>Bb to the right knee - probably RKL on your setup. The other approach is to move your E=>Eb to RKL and move the G-lever to LKR. I have the latter setup, with G#=>F# on LKR, which I split with the B-pedal to get G. There are advantages and disadvantages to putting E=>F and E=>Eb on different knees. Here is the definitive discussion on that topic, IMO - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769.html - pay particular attention to the discussion between Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin.

Don't know when I'm getting up there, I'm pretty slammed right now, but my dad is in Amherst and my brother is in Shelburne Falls. We should get together some time when I'm in the vicinity.