Innovative Fretboard

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 1:10 am

Terry W.,

Are you seriously proposing that playing without looking at the fretboard is possible? Do you know someone who has accomplished this feat? If not, what is your point?
As long as I have vision, I prefer the visual aspect of playing steel guitar. It's possible to play many songs, and not move off the fret. This I do on occasion, using chord melody to compensate for the lack of bar movement.

Bill H.

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 25 Sep 2002 1:55 am

Joe Wright played some of his set in St. Louis without looking at the fret board. My wife commented on it at the time. And by the way he wasn't playing the song on one fret either. He was all over the place and not only was he in tune but it sounded great.

Rick Garrett

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 4:02 am

Rick G M,

Joe Wright will be performing at the Doubletree Club Hotel on Nov. 9th, and 10th, on 789 Ct. Ave., in Norwalk, Ct., at the P.S.G.A. 29th celebration. Many of my friends attend the event each November. Thanks for the interesting input.

Bill H.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Sep 2002 4:48 am

It is difficult to get visual cues from other band members and it is impossible to read music while watching the neck.

Needing to watch the neck to play is a weakness that steel players need to strive to overcome. To reinforce that weakness with a folded piece of paper sticking out from under the neck would have a crippling effect on mastery of the instrument.

Bob

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 5:26 am

Forum Members,

After experimenting with the vertical fretboard, I suddenly realized that the existing horizontal fretboard is no longer needed, and I am deeming it obsolete. Therefore, the main focus will be concentrated on fret lines which appear as though the nose of the bar is touching them. In addition, recognizable key figures at the top of selected frets will assure the player; of total accuracy, and ultimate ease, while in concert. Today, I will cover my horizontal fretboard with paper to obliterate the frets. If what I believe is true, my bar will become a pointer, like a pistol, and I will have freed myself from a major source of aggravation.

Bill H.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Sep 2002 5:29 am

Bill,
At the ISGC in StL 20 years ago or so Buddy Emmons played a killer set. As usual, he took his guitar off stage and toted it to his booth. I went over (along with a bunch of others) to tell him how much I appreciated his set and noticed that The Blade had NO FRETBOARD. I asked him about it and he kinda shrugged his shoulders.

And it is true that many good players (Joe Wright comes to mind) often close their eyes or stare into space while moving the bar all over the guitar -- single notes, chords, whatever.

So, YES, it IS possible to play steel guitar with no fret markers. And YES, (FWIW) I agree with those who propose that practicing with the frets covered will accomplish much more than an attempt to make the frets more visible. To reiterate the point of another responder, how many violins have you ever seen with fret markers? The visual is just a cue and I agree that the proof is in the pudding, but that pudding is the SOUND and the feedback loop between the ears and hands is a critical mechanism and skill to develop, in my opinion.

Just my experience and opinion.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 September 2002 at 06:40 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 5:38 am

Bob H.,

Please don't be absurd by playing down the paper experiment. I clearly stated that it was merely a simple procedure to test the concept. The vertical fretboard will be in reality an attractive addition to any steel guitar, and will be removable if one chooses to do so.

Bill H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 25 Sep 2002 5:47 am

If this fails to excite you, let me be the first to know.

Bill, with my greatest respect, you have been duly notified.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 25 September 2002 at 06:48 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 25 Sep 2002 5:59 am

Attractive addition???
What planet are you from???

...my bar will become a pointer, like a pistol, and I will have freed myself from a major source of aggravation.

If you'll just point it at your temple, you'll free ME from a major source of aggravation!

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 25 Sep 2002 6:02 am

Bill,

This is brilliant. I want one now.

How far do you think the vertical extension should be from the first string, and how high above should it extend?

Mike

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 25 Sep 2002 7:05 am

I have an idea for a name Bill: How about 'Lucky 24'?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Sep 2002 8:24 am

Remember how the old multi-meters eliminated parallax error?... A mirror!
You knew the needle (bar) was exactly on the hash mark (fret) when the reflection of the needle disapeared (parallax).
(I chose the term "Hash Mark" {golden seal?} for you, Marty!)

I was practicing in front of a window recently, and looked up and noticed I could see the reflection of my bar and frets quite well.

I haven't experimented with a strip of reflective material placed vertically in front of my fretboard yet, such that one could see the fret and the bar, but I say...
...Run with it Bill, before this crowd gets ugly

!

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 25 Sep 2002 8:25 am

One thing you can't take away from steel guitar players of late.........inventiveness.

Not a day goes by on the forum where someone isn't trying to reinvent the wheel.

How, oh how did the old time greats learn to play this contraption without all of these new concepts. No pedals.......no affects boxes.......no stage monitors, no tableture, etc. They usually dressed nicely and the bands even worked together instead of attempting to out due everyone else on the stage.
Paul Bigsby, Jackson-Emmons and others were inventive and deserve credit for their significant contributions to the steel guitar.
Practice makes perfect whereas gimmicks will one day show the world all of your undetected inadequacies.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 25 Sep 2002 8:41 am

...your undetected inadequacies.

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN???

Who told you?!?
You can expect to hear from my lawyer!!!

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 25 Sep 2002 8:59 am

I would have to agree with Bob on this one. After watching the new Emmons and Rugg video you'll Buddy play a lot without watching at all..entire runs. I was at that show and seen that a lot from him. That's knowing your fretboard! The only problem I have with the fretboard would be glare or maybe the silver line fretboard in dark rooms. I don't have the nerve either Bob. I've tried it a time or two but you won't see me drift far from one, two, maybe three frets. It's the stage lights that create the glare for me.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 9:12 am

Michael H.

Sorry for the delay in answering your inquiry. Thank you for your interest. The vertical fretboard will be placed just beyond the nose of the bar. and fingertips. Making contact with the newly placed fretboard would be undesirable. The height of the uppermost edge will be kept to a minimum, although there are many variables associated with preferences. The finished product should offer a comfortable visual contact, with the bar nose having the appearance of resting on the selected fret.

Bill H.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 25 Sep 2002 9:20 am

But Bill, how will you KNOW the nose of the bar is pointing EXACTLY AT the desired fret marker?

Are you going to solder a needle directly onto the center long axis of the bar?

How narrow are the fret markers going to be? The fret markers on my steel are pretty wide. WAY TOO WIDE to be completely accurate.
Oh, and don't forget to compensate for the mass of the bar and the differing amounts of pressure exerted by different players!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 25 Sep 2002 10:59 am

Trust on your ears, not on your eyes. This goes up for all musical instruments.
remember, you are playing music!

JJ www.steeljj.com www.steeldays.nl

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 11:41 am

Johan J.,

Do you trust your ears exclusively while playing an uptempo melody, that requires many zigzag moves involving quick fret changes, and long span glisses?

Bill H.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 25 Sep 2002 12:24 pm

Hey Bill,
With all due respect, you ever get to thinking this was a dumb idea?
And if not, you ever teach a pig how to ride a bicycle?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 Sep 2002 12:44 pm

I think some people are being too black and white about this. Sure the fine pitch adjustment must always be done by ear. But for most of us, sight sure helps get in the right vicinity, especially for a lot of fast complicated chord changes.

The fact that some of the greats with long experience can play without a fret board, or also blind people can (are there any blind steel players?) doesn't really change the fact that sight is helpful for most of us. And to the extent that it is, a vertical fretboard might be helpful, especially in the middle range where your bar hand gets in the way, or on the high frets that are really close together. But from the audience standpoint it will make it so no one can watch you play - what a loss of esthetics. But then, you can't see keyboard players hands sometimes, and nobody seems to care.

I suppose we could all learn to play without a fretboard, we find the strings with our picking hand without looking mostly. For that matter, bass guitar players could learn to play fretless basses - why don't they? In fact, couldn't six stringers also play without frets? I've never heard of that. I don't know - steel guitar is hard enough to play with fretboards. Do we really want to make it harder?

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 25 Sep 2002 12:52 pm

If all you guys can play in tune without looking at your fretboards you're better players than I. I was a trombone major in school and, yes, you play by feel, but there are only seven positions and the mouthpiece being jammed against your teeth (lips) gives a pretty firm point of reference.

Bill, I'm baffled by the backlash you're receiving here (but it's not unexpected considering the history of some of these jokers). Your description of the fretboard clicked instantly in my mind and it does indeed solve the problem of not being able to see through the bar as I mentioned previously.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Sep 2002 1:20 pm

Forum Members,

Update on proposed vertical fretboard!! I just came away from my steel, and I have to report that a 2" wide prototype fretboard with matching frets is unbelievable, compared to the partially hidden horizontal. Free! I'm home free. Now I'll be able to do Buddy's 3rd and 5th string backward glisses perfectly, and derive pleasures upon pleasures, knowing positively, that I've conquered something that has been a bur in my sock for years. An extra bit of trivia! My wife held the prototype in place and I took off on Kitty Wells' "Password" intro by George Edwards.
I went from the 2nd fret to the 15th, with no stops on the way. The horizontal fretboard is covered temporarily for testing with typing paper. After a turkey breast dinner, I'll be back at the steel.

I can't wait!!

Bill H.

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 25 Sep 2002 1:30 pm

Interesting thread. I personally can't see the need for this device. I "see through" my bar without any trouble. You do have to rely on your ears, I guess, it's really hard for me to say. When I'm playing something that requires some fast bar movements I just end up on the fret. It's happening to fast to say I'm seeing it or for that matter even hearing it. It's just happening. I guess I'm doing both when I'm learning something new, but after I've put in the time and brought it up to speed, it just happens. Same thing when I'm improvising, jamming, whatever. It's just happening because I'm thinking about what's next. Sight, sound, mechanics, whether or not there's a good looking babe on the dance floor. It all works together. If you feel you need some kind of device to help you see the frets, go for it. Everybody thinks steel players are wierd anyway.

------------------
Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string

Matt Martin · Post by **Matt Martin** » 25 Sep 2002 2:22 pm

Who looks at the frets??? I,m a blind man and have been learning to play the pedal steel. My frets are raised on my guitar. What I do, is after I strike a chord or a string, I turn my hand upside down so I can feel the fret with my pinky. I then move it back and forth until I feel the proper fret.
Doing a gliss takes awhile but I've got the sound down!! This method is kind of a drag as
sometimes when I turn my hand, the bar falls on the ground. Well you know what happens then!!!! My pig hops off his excersise bike and puts it right back in my hand. Well, I've got Sleep Walk down to about 25 to 30 minutes.I hope to get it to about 15 minutes by about 2005. Sorry about the spelling, Arnold isn't a very good typist or speller.