The effect of pickups on tone..

[Bob Carlucci]

Same pickup, different VPs & amp loads = different sounds...why, because the VPs and amp load the highs out of most pickups, particularly the high resistance ones. The lower the VP resistance, the more the upper range loss.

It is hard to see how a pickup can affect "sustain", but they can move the Sustain band (frequency) by their resonant frequency. The mag field of most pickups does not damp the string vibrations a noticeable amount.

The physical center of the pickup is not necessarily the magnetic center...and we usually accept that the pickup location effects the audible spectrum as does where and how you pick the strings.

Ed I have often wondered how a pickup can affect sustain.. however, I can assure you it does on standard electric guitars [steel guitars are another debate, one that I seem to be losing]... Having owned many many vintage guitars over the past 45 years, I have noticed that identical bodies, necks, and hardware sustain longer with higher output humbucking pickups.. Perhaps it is just an illusion, or a shift in the " sustain band" as you stated, but its there... I base this reasoning on several models of old Gibson and Epiphone solid body guitars I owned the were 100% identical in every aspect of materials and construction. The only difference was pickup options, and the pickup made massive differences in both sound and sustain... bob

[Dave Mudgett]

I think a pickup can indeed have a strong enough magnetic field to damp string vibrations. I've seen it on 6-string guitars, especially when players raise the pickups close to the strings. I think it's more common to see this on a pickup closer to the neck, but is possible closer to the bridge.

For example, there's a common phenomenon called 'Stratitis' on Fender Stratocasters. This happens when the neck pickup is close enough to the strings to affect the string vibration and not only reduce sustain, but also change the normal string vibration pattern enough to actually detune the note being played. I've observed this effect frequently on 6-strings of various types, not just Strats. The solution is to lower one or more pickups, or if you're in the mood to mod the guitar so you can crank 'em up to the strings, change the pickup(s) to a lower-mag-field one.

But pedal steel players do tend to crank the pickup pretty close to the strings - a lot of discussions talk about one or two quarter thickness(es) away. The wild card here is the pickup's magnetic strength, which is one of the design variables obsessed about in 6-string pickup design and discussions, but rarely mentioned when talking about pedal steel pickups. Unless you're Bill Lawrence. One of the things I really like about Bill's pickups is that he doesn't use such strong magnets - it's an inherent part of his design philosophy to deemphasize the magnetic load and thus give a more balanced response, even with a lot more windings.

Of course, as Ed mentions, shifting the primary resonant frequency to a different band can change the perceived sustain - if a certain band of frequencies sustains longer and you shift the main resonant peak to that band, the output signal will in fact sustain longer. In terms of the amplified signal, that isn't just 'perceived', but real - the envelope of the overall signal magnitude decays more slowly.

Another aspect of pickup design that is obsessed about in 6-string pickup design, but seemingly ignored in pedal steel pickup discussions, is exactly how the pickup winding is formed - for example, stair-stepped, precisely layered windings versus scatter-wound. From my experience with tons of different types of 6-string pickups (where I have a pretty good idea how they were made), I think it can make a difference. Maybe it's just a lumped EQ type of effect, but I suspect not, since it probably affects how the varying magnetic field pickup strength is distributed geometrically along the string(s). There are other construction details that can affect mag field geometry - for example, wire gauge and thickness of wire insulation (which also affects coil capacitance). Electronic EQ is a purely lumped-circuit effect. Everything in a guitar/steel and the magnetic pickup is distributed geometrically, and not necessarily accurately approximated by a lumped complex impedance change. The effect of a pickup change may also be different on different strings, due to changes in magnetic field geometry.

Bob, I don't think you're 'losing' on this discussion, nor should you expect to 'win' - it's a discussion. I think the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle between two apparently opposing ideas. Usually different 'sides' in a discussion have made legitimate observations, and the issue is cause and effect, which can be very hard to pinpoint. Add to this the fact that each observer may be observing something somewhat different in their own context(s). I think there are so many things going on when you consider the totality of an amplified solid-body instrument:

Player
Picks (or lack thereof)
Strings
Pickup
Guitar/Steel basic design
Guitar/Steel tweaks
Cables
Volume Pedal
Effects
Amp Circuit
Speaker
Room Acoustics
People in Room
Other Players, who are interfering with your sonic vibrations

There are lots of variables in each of these items. The last item can be huge - think about adding a bunch of complex signals together. What to you get, frequency spectrum-wise? Of course, it matters exactly what those signals are. But if you have a bunch of signals with strength in the usual midrange frequencies, they're going to tend to schmear together and be less recognizable individually. I mentioned phase in Ed's vibration thread. Even small changes in the geometry of where players' signals emanate from can change the phase relationships between signals - phase cancellation is a pretty common issue in recording when using multiple mics. Add to that standing waves resulting from room reflections - it's complex.

Anyway - don't give up the ship. You are onto something when you say that significant variations in pickup design can have a large effect on sound. It's not everything by any means, but neither is any other single factor. I honestly doubt most of the people involved in this discussion disagree with that.

PS - I know some of you looking at this are gonna say, "Why can't you just boil this all down to a simple soundbite?" Sorry, it's too complex for that. I've tried to break up separate ideas into separate paragraphs, but there's way too much going on in an an electronically-amplified instrument like a guitar or pedal steel to arrive at any type of 'truth' in a soundbite. My opinion.

[Brint Hannay]

The physical center of the pickup is not necessarily the magnetic center...and we usually accept that the pickup location effects the audible spectrum as does where and how you pick the strings.

This relates to something I've thought about with electric guitar (non-steel) pickups--hopefully not too off-topic, even though it's not steel (the section isn't titled "Steel Guitar Electronics").

It bugs me that many Fender Strats and Teles are built such that one or more pickups lean to one side in their mountings. Especially Tele neck pickups; apparently it's too much trouble to make the body and pickguard so that the body cavity and pickguard hole for the neck pickup line up right, making it impossible (without modifying the pickguard) for the pickup to sit parallel to the strings, rather than listing, sometimes pretty much, toward the bridge (usually). It seems to me this would change the geometry of the string's relationship to the magnetic field of the pickup. Maybe not a big deal, but why not build 'em right?

[Dave Mudgett]

Physical mounting of Strat and Tele-neck pickups, and Les Paul or SG pickups for that matter, can definitely be a bit iffy. This type of listing is pretty much inherent in a pickup which is attached with just two screws, one on each side. That's why the 3-screw mounting (from front and back of the pickup) on a Tele bridge pickup or most pedal steel pickups works out better (IMO). If you want flat, you got it, and if you want an angle, no problem adjusting it for that.

I usually have more trouble with the humbuckers in the neck position of a Les Paul or SG than Fender pickups - I assume because the pickup is wider (front-to-back) and an angular force on the bridge-facing end of the pickup, for example due to being pulled down by the pickup wire, will typically have a larger effect. Some replacement humbuckers make a point of using 3-screw mountings, which helps.

Since magnetic fields and their associated currents are normal (perpendicular) to each other, pickup angle changes can have a noticeable effect. Think about how you decrease the hum in a Tele - shift the angle of the guitar (and thus pickup) so the coupling to stray electromagnetic fields is reduced.

Of course, what sounds best to one person or another may or may not be a perfectly flat pickup. But if listing is an issue, I usually use foam spacers underneath the pickup to get that angle where I want it.

[Donny Hinson]

I'm not a fan of bringing straight guitars into a discussion on steel guitars. To me, they're completely different animals, and there are far more differences than similarities between the two. That said, I can write off the differences in pickups to just two factors: EQ and amplitude. Why? Well, simply because there is nothing else in the equation. If one pickup sounds better or worse, louder or softer, cleaner or grainier, more airy or compressed, or distinct or muffled, it's all attributable to the EQ and amplitude differences between the two, plain and simple.

Like a lot of players, I thought there were big differences. But when I got a guitar that had plug-in pickups, all that changed. Differences were, at most, terribly subtle, such that they'd never even be noticed in a band situation.

Normally, I can't make a humbucker sound kust like a single coil. But, given enough EQ and a dash of compression, I can make a single coil sound just like a humbucker (except for the "hum factor"). I can also make a 710 sound like an E66 by just tweaking the EQ...as long as I have a good amp. (I've demonstrated this, too, just ask Joe Sapp.)

In the final analysis, there is no concensus on what is the "best" pickup. It's terribly subjective, and if you talk to 10 different players, you'll likely get 10 different answers. Pick one you like, and go on playing, but keep in mind that no one can identify pickups by their sound, any more than they can identify pedal steels by their sound. If a pickup sounds better to you, then that's probably enough. Just don't expect anyone else to notice a difference, because they probably won't!

To sum it all up, IMHO, changing pickups on a pedal steel is about the most minor change that you can make in your sound. But don't take my word for it...just record yourself before and after the change - then let someone else be the judge on "How big a difference it makes". I think you'll be surprised at their answer.

Ain' no big ting, Bing.

[Bob Carlucci]

I'm not a fan of bringing straight guitars into a discussion on steel guitars. To me, they're completely different animals, and there are far more differences than similarities between the two. That said, I can write off the differences in pickups to just two factors: EQ and amplitude. Why? Well, simply because there is nothing else in the equation. If one pickup sounds better or worse, louder or softer, cleaner or grainier, more airy or compressed, or distinct or muffled, it's all attributable to the EQ and amplitude differences between the two, plain and simple.

Like a lot of players, I thought there were big differences. But when I got a guitar that had plug-in pickups, all that changed. Differences were, at most, terribly subtle, such that they'd never even be noticed in a band situation.

Normally, I can't make a humbucker sound kust like a single coil. But, given enough EQ and a dash of compression, I can make a single coil sound just like a humbucker (except for the "hum factor"). I can also make a 710 sound like an E66 by just tweaking the EQ...as long as I have a good amp. (I've demonstrated this, too, just ask Joe Sapp.)

In the final analysis, there is no concensus on what is the "best" pickup. It's terribly subjective, and if you talk to 10 different players, you'll likely get 10 different answers. Pick one you like, and go on playing, but keep in mind that no one can identify pickups by their sound, any more than they can identify pedal steels by their sound. If a pickup sounds better to you, then that's probably enough. Just don't expect anyone else to notice a difference, because they probably won't!

To sum it all up, IMHO, changing pickups on a pedal steel is about the most minor change that you can make in your sound. But don't take my word for it...just record yourself before and after the change - then let someone else be the judge on "How big a difference it makes". I think you'll be surprised at their answer.

Ain' no big ting, Bing.

Thats a cop out Donnie.. A standard guitar is wood metal and strings, just like a steel.. If it applies to a standard guitar, there is no special pedal steel magic mojo that separates the equation.. If a heavily wound humbucking pickup with ceramic magnets sounds different than a lightly wound single coil with Alnico on a solid body electric, it applies to a pedal steel as well.

Ask Jerry Wallace if he thinks his pickups sound the same as a GeorgeL... not to me they don't...
bob

[Donny Hinson]

Thats a cop out Donnie.. A standard guitar is wood metal and strings, just like a steel.. If it applies to a standard guitar, there is no special pedal steel magic mojo that separates the equation.. If a heavily wound humbucking pickup with ceramic magnets sounds different than a lightly wound single coil with Alnico on a solid body electric, it applies to a pedal steel as well.

It's not a cop-out, Bob, it's common sense and observation.

1.) pedal steels mave no fingerboards
2.) pedal steels have no neck to resonate
3.) pedal steels have no metal frets
4.) pedal steels have no neck joints.
5.) pedal steels have no multiple pickups
6.) pedal steels have no different body shapes
7.) pedal steels have no adjustable bridges
8.) pedal steels have no tailpieces
9.) pedal steels have no pickguards

and so on...

10) straight guitars have no legs
11) straight guitars have no heavy changers
12) straight guitars have no aluminum keyhead
13) straight guitars have no nut rollers
14) straight guitars aren't all made of thin boards
15) straight guitars don't weigh 30-50 lbs.
16) straight guitars aren't all boxy rectangles
17) straight guitars don't just have a bridge pickup
18) straight guitars aren't built without tone controls
19) straight guitars don't have endplates
20) straight guitars don't have rubber or plastic feet

Now, you and I could argue all day about these differences, so now lets look at the similarities:

1) they both have metal strings
2) they both have a pickup
3) they both (normally) have tuning keys

and uhh...uhhh...uhhh

Well shuckins...THAT'S IT!

Honestly Bob, try adjusting the knobs on the amp sometime.

[Bob Carlucci]

Alright Donnie, fine, you win.. Every pickup sounds the same...I understand now... Its the wood mica and changer and rods that supply 100% of the tonal characteristics.
However I really doubt the guys that make their living actually WINDING the pickups would agree.
bob

[Donny Hinson]

You missed it again, Bub. I never said they sounded the same. What I said was that the differences are very small, and most of the time, those differences can be reduced even more by a good amp, and someone who does more than "set that on on 4, that one on 5, and that one on 6".

It's all personal taste, I know different players like different pickups.There is no "best sounding pickup". If any one pickup were best, that would be the only one out there.

Believe me, I listen a lot! I'm on youtube an hour or two every night. And, IMHO, until you're a very accomplished player (a helluva lot better than me) time spent worrying about pickups would be far better spent on practicing or lessons.

Wanting a new pickup, and needing a new pickup, are two very different things.

[Steve Ahola]

I've heard it said that if the guitar doesn't sound good to you without any amplification, it likely won't sound good to you with amplification. If true, that would say that the construction of the neck may be the biggest factor!

A big huge sounding Les Paul makes almost no sound acoustically.. The same guitar amplified, is full, rich, resonant, harmonically complex, and has big sustain, yet acoustically it has a thin plink and dies instantly.

Have you ever butted the body of your Les Paul up to a wall? It is almost like plugging it into a very clean amp. Or tug on the Les Paul so the strap is tight around the back of your neck?

I guess all of that sounds strange so let's just use a stethoscope. The Les Paul has a very beautiful acoustic tone- it just does not have a lot of volume.

Steve Ahola

[Steve Ahola]

Thats a cop out Donnie.. A standard guitar is wood metal and strings, just like a steel.. If it applies to a standard guitar, there is no special pedal steel magic mojo that separates the equation.. If a heavily wound humbucking pickup with ceramic magnets sounds different than a lightly wound single coil with Alnico on a solid body electric, it applies to a pedal steel as well.

It's not a cop-out, Bob, it's common sense and observation.

1.) pedal steels have no fingerboards
2.) pedal steels have no neck to resonate
3.) pedal steels have no metal frets...

So what are non-pedal steels- chopped liver? FWIW I think that the wooden neck on my 1972 Sho Bud Pro gives it a really nice tone, not to mention the wood body.

Your earlier post suggested that EQ and amplitude were basically all that mattered with pickups. The factors contributing to EQ are very complex. For starts it depends on the DC resistance, the inductance and the capacitance of the insulation in the coil windings. The type of magnets used along with their gauss rating make a difference as well. The looseness or tightness of the windings can make the pickup more microphonic or less- both sides of that range have their advantages and disadvantages. Add two coils together in a humcancelling arrangement and you get even more variables.

It is amazing to compare two pickups which by all measurements are identical but the one from the boutique winder sounds almost magical while the one from Fender sounds kinda plain. It's not like audiophiles bragging about their $1000 interconnects (plain folks call them "audio cables") since there is a difference in sound and response that most people can hear when they play or listen to them. That is why there is a market for the boutique pickups (and it is not like the Emperor's New Clothes.)

Steve Ahola

[Steve Ahola]

ok - take that same les paul and plug it into a $200 made in China digital modeling amp. Still have that singing sustain and harmonic saturation? replace the pickups with anything - you still get the same uninspiring sound. All the harmonics are lost in the amplifier.
Now plug that very same guitar into the vintage Marshall 18W amp that it should be plugged into - thats the sound! Now replace the pickups with anything - still got the sound? Yes! The amp is the main tone factor. You can have the worst guitar in the world with just about any pickups in it, and unless the amp is good you will not notice much difference between it and a $5000 guitar with hand wired pickups and tone wood.

I agree that most guitars will sound crappy when plugged into a crappy amp but it does not follow logically that the amp is a more critical factor than the guitar or the pickup. Crappiness begets crappiness- I don't think that we should be using crappy equipment if we want good sound.

With a really good amp you can usually tell the difference between guitars and pickups- a difference which would not be noticeable in a crappy amp which plasters its signature on top of any guitar you plug into it.

Many people record their guitars directly into their computers and it sounds top notch- with no guitar amp in the equation. Plugged into your computer unless you are using heavy effects the sound of the guitar and the pickups is very pronounced.

To sum up my hypothesis I believe that we need good sounding equipment throughout the entire audio chain to get a good sound: a good sounding guitar with a good sounding pickup plugged into a good sounding amp- or a good sounding mixing board or a high fidelity input on a computer. Replace any one of those components with crap and your sound will suffer. (BTW we are talking about the pure sound of the guitar with not a lot of effects beside reverb. Once you turn on the fuzzbox it can be hard to judge the quality of the tone.)

Steve Ahola

[Dan Tyack]

Donny wrote: "5.) pedal steels have no multiple pickups "

Not an absolute.

I got the biggest change in the overall sound of the pedal steel (ignoring the amp issue) by adding a second humbucker style pickup at the 24th fret, in roughly the same position you would find the neck pickup in an SG. It profoundly changes the sound, especially when you mix the two pickups. You get a throaty, rich sound.

More Mahalia Jackson, less Wanda Jackson.

[Jon Light]

Apologies for the spam but I am very close to announcing the roll-out (with photos) of my non-destructive 'add-a-second-pickup' system with moveable pickup and switching box with phase reversal and tone & volume control. I'm really digging the prototype.

[Dan Tyack]

What kind of pickup? THat sounds intriguing (wouldn't want to chop up both of my Franklins).

[Jon Light]

Dan--it's a Lace Sensor USAB. Very slim bass pickup. First pup I've found that is a perfect size for sliding under the steel's strings.
Here's a post I did a while ago:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... t=#1941195

[Dan Tyack]

What is the tone like versus a pickup like the Lawrence 705? Anything like a PAF Gibson humbucker (my personal favorite in the neck position)?

I think I'll need to get one.

[Jon Light]

I can't really address that because I'm only hearing it in a 'neck position' vs. the 'bridge position' of all my steel guitars. I've never heard a PSG with anything other than a pup jammed right up to the changer so comparisons are meaningless. So far I'm working this on a 12 string Sho-Bud with a BL 912. When I find the time I'll try it with my Fess w/ Alumitone and for the hell of it, a p/p w/original sc pup.
I'd describe the pup as flat, full spectrum but I hesitate to describe....
As per that other thread, the sonic color expansion is cool and the ability to move it to find sweet spots is cool but for me it really shines with overdrive where harmonics are really played with.

[Dan Tyack]

I hear that Jon. The pickup sounds so different in the neck position that it's hard to make comparisons. I am using a Telonics in the neck position of my Desert Rose, and it sounds nothing like it does in the bridge (as you said 'jammed up against the changer').

[Jon Light]

When I'm playing the 2 pickup rig for a while, when I switch over to original single pickup config I say "whoa--is that really the sound I've been knowing (and loving) on my Sho-Bud all this time?!" It is so very extremely, uniquely colored by its position there at the very toenail of the string. No judgements. Just very educational. The harmonic structure of the sound is very very colored and is anything but neutral.
Sorry that I haven't read the entirety of this thread and sorry if I'm repeating stuff but there's no question in my mind that a notable amount of the sonic profile of an electric stringed instrument is from this relationship between the pickup and the overtone nodes of the string.
I do NOT discount all the other timbral variables, from materials to construction to playing techniques so let's not bore everyone by saying that if he likes cats then he must not like dogs.

[Dan Tyack]

I'm with you Jon. The difference between having multiple pickups available and just the bridge is much more dramatic than changing bridge pickups.

[Dan Tyack]

I did a demo video for my Little Walter amp which shows some tonal differences between using multiple pickups:

Little Walter Demo

[Steve Ahola]

When I'm playing the 2 pickup rig for a while, when I switch over to original single pickup config I say "whoa--is that really the sound I've been knowing (and loving) on my Sho-Bud all this time?!" It is so very extremely, uniquely colored by its position there at the very toenail of the string. No judgements. Just very educational. The harmonic structure of the sound is very very colored and is anything but neutral.

I have a theory that having the pickup so close to the bridge was an early form of noise reduction- you would HAVE to turn the treble down on your amp or steel which would also reduce some or most of the noise. Jerry Byrd set his tone control starting at the 0 position and turning it up slowly until he had enough high frequencies for a good tone.

A good many two pickup guitars have their neck pickup at what would be the 24th fret (the second overtone for the open strings.)

Steve Ahola

P.S. Your kit sounds very interesting! I checked the Lace site looking for dimensions of the USAB as well as the actual sensing area, but could not find them. Can you fill us in? Thanks!

[Steve Ahola]

Sorry that I haven't read the entirety of this thread and sorry if I'm repeating stuff but there's no question in my mind that a notable amount of the sonic profile of an electric stringed instrument is from this relationship between the pickup and the overtone nodes of the string.

I bought an Epiphone Alley Kat semi-hollow guitar a few years ago with a Gibson style mini-HB at the neck and a regular humbucker at the bridge. I did not like the sound of the bridge humbucker so I tried swapping it out with all of my "go to" pickups, but it always had a strange tone that was never right to my ears.

I finally figured that it HAD to be the location of the pickup so I cut a small piece of the wood top from the neck side of the pickup and glued it to the bridge side so that I could move the pickup about 1/2". That made all of the difference in the world. (I used Popsicle sticks as a "bridge" when I was glueing the small piece of wood to the top- and crayons to hide the joint! )

In any case that experience made me a believer in the importance of pickup location!

Steve Ahola