B's to Bb Change ?

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 10 Sep 2002 6:39 am

What do you guys use this for? I'm trying to decide whether or not to keep it on the P/P?

thx

bob

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 10 Sep 2002 6:44 am

It's used most frequently for a 9th chord two frets down from your home fret in pedals up position. Also for getting the last lick of the "Together Again" solo.

Guys with AP guitars also have a split-tuning application for it, making a minor chord with pedals down, among other things. This wouldn't apply for a PP user.

Having said all that, I took the change off my guitar. I slant the bar, like I learned to years ago, or I get the sound using the E-raise lever to reflect the change on the 5th string.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 Sep 2002 7:06 am

I play gospel music. And melody at that. There is a particular gospel piece that I play that this change is invaluable. I need to drop a note 1/2 tone and I do it via a vertical pedal with this change.

Erv

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Sep 2002 7:57 am

If you have a lever that lowers the 6th a half-tone, it works real well with that, too.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Sep 2002 8:17 am

In the IV chord position, it gives you a scale note you wouldn't have otherwise. For example, if you're in G and you're on a C chord at the 8th fret, you could use that lever to get a melody note from the scale.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 10 Sep 2002 9:00 am

2 points.
1- on an all pull guitar, if you don't have a tunable split, if you try use theis change with the A lever, the resultant note is out of tune. Somewhere between C and C sharp. This is the only thing about my MSA that I don't like.

2- the same position that you get by lowering the B string or strings a half step can be achieved by dropping the bar one fret and raising the E and G# strings on the R knee lever and B pedal.

I have the change on a wrist lever, which I believe is the most logical place to put it on a universal tuning. Sometimes the wrist lever gets in the way of my playing. At those times I have to fold it down, thus denying myself the use of the change.

I want a mental telepathy lever.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 10 Sep 2002 9:36 am

The Bb knee on the 5th string is a dual purpose change on the U-12 universal. It functions as typically used on the E9th tuning and as on the C to B knee on the 3rd string on the C6th 10 string neck(B to Bb on the B6th tuning)....an example of one knee serving both tunings.
Dennis

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 10 Sep 2002 11:24 am

Boy am I ever confused. I use this change to get a 7th chord two frets down in the pedals up position. I also use it to get a minor in the pedals down. Am I just out to lunch or what? I've never heard of anyone using this to get a 9th chord. Maybe my oldtimers is kicking in

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 10 Sep 2002 12:41 pm

Steve
When you play two frets below the root position (eg: 3rd fret when playing in A), the 3rd string becomes the 9th(or B note), the 4th string becomes the 7th (G) and, if you lower the 5th to C# (or the 3rd of the scale) with the lever in question, strings 3,4 and 5 become, in that context, essentially a 9th chord.

It's not a complete 9th, of course - it just gives the flavour - hopefully, someone else in the band is pitching in with the requisite A and E notes! The 9th chord is a common substitute for the simpler 7th, so maybe that's what you were hearing.

I love the 5th and 10th lower; I have it on RKL, and have come to depend on it - in tandem with the 9th and 6th strings, along with various applications of the A and B pedals, there is a multitude of interesting voicings to be found.....

(Edited twice because of poor English!)
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Roger Rettig
Emmons LGIII(8+6), Fender Stringmaster (0+0) and a Zumsteel D10 on order!!!

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 10 September 2002 at 01:42 PM.][This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 10 September 2002 at 01:44 PM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 10 Sep 2002 1:17 pm

I have the change on my Vertical and use it for the 9th voicings in my fingerstyle
arrangements.
I have not yet got a comfortable approach to using it however. My knee goes up and the foot ankle dangle. Kinda stressfull!!

I also pull my foot back and toe into the floor, raise the heel pushing the knee up. This however gets you away from the normal pedal position.
Maybe the vertical lever is too high for me.
Have not figured this out yet. Seems to me others have/have had the same problem.
A stumper.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Sep 2002 1:39 pm

Mike Perlowin wrote:

2- the same position that you get by lowering the B string or strings a half step can be achieved by dropping the bar one fret and raising the E and G# strings on the R knee lever and B pedal.

In theory, that's true. But in practice that interval is out of tune if you don't use equal temperament. The G# to A raises by more cents than the E to F. In just intonation (beatless tuning) the combination will be nearly a quartertone out!

Also, you would have to raise your F# to G. The middle F# string is the root note of the seventh chord formed with the B to Bb (A#) lever.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 10 September 2002 at 02:45 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 10 Sep 2002 2:41 pm

Roy

I have a similar problem. I do have a vertical on the left that lowers my 6th string but, due to either the height of my guitar or the shortness of my legs (not much to be done about them, I guess!), I rarely even attempt to use it. It's 'split-tuned' with the 'B' pedal, but I may as well take it off for all the use it is to me! I know that most players that lower 5 and 10 do so on a vertical, but that would seriously impede my efforts so it's on my RKL.

It's strange because, in every other respect, my guitar is comfortable. All those musical 'doors' that are opened with that 6th string split remain firmly closed to me, I'm afraid. IF there's a way to lower it, I'm not aware of the method - certainly it'd be difficult to close the case! This is my LeGrande I'm talking about - does anyone have any suggestions?

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Roger Rettig
Emmons LGIII(8+6), Fender Stringmaster (0+0) and a Zumsteel D10 on order!!!

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 10 Sep 2002 2:54 pm

It's funny that you say "close the case" because after I lowered my vertical lever to make it easier to play, when I close my guitar case, the lid actually pushes the lever down a bit. [This message was edited by Dave Birkett on 10 September 2002 at 05:52 PM.]

Dan Dowd · Post by **Dan Dowd** » 10 Sep 2002 3:34 pm

I like to use it to play Steelin the Blues in any key. EX:A and B pedals down 3rd fret Key of C use it for the 4 3rd fret and 5 chord 5th fret. Lets see the C6th guys play it in C and not C#

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 10 Sep 2002 4:55 pm

Dang.... learn something every day! So I've been resolving my root chords into ninths thinking it was a seventh..... Hmmm, I musta missed class that day

Bobby Snell · Post by **Bobby Snell** » 11 Sep 2002 9:21 am

Dave Birkett, you might want to lower the lever when you travel with your steel...having the lever against the case can be dangerous if it takes a shock to the outside.

Roger Rettig, I have my B-Bb on the vertical, and have it adjusted down while playing so I can reach it. The split I have tuned going down to the "C", and it is very nice to have that. The split on the 6 string I have going down to the "G"...and the G#-F# is on my RKL. The vertical as a half-step is easier, while the whole-step is easier to lever with my knee going sideways.

Of course, this is on an all-pull guitar, so it has no relevance to Mr. Snelgrove's original question!

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 11 Sep 2002 9:46 am

Re: Bob S.
Danny Cormier showed me how to get a beautiful Diminished chord with the two main pedals depressed and the Eb lever & Bb lever engaged, all at the same time. I'm not so sure this would work on a push/pull, but sure is nice on a steel that will handle it! On my other steel, I get the same thing without the Bb lever by simply half-pedaling the B/C# pedal w /the other pedal and lever engaged. Bottom line, its a great lever and I love it but really don't have room for it.
Five levers on a single-neck and seven on a Double-neck are about all I can comfortably manage. The wrist lever idea is great but I don't have one and my others are filled up without the Bb lever. Hope this is clearer than mud!
W.C.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 11 Sep 2002 10:29 am

Bobby

I like my 5th and 10th drop where I have it now - on my RKL. Like Wayne, one of the principal uses I have for this change is the 'diminished' with pedals down and the 'E' lower engaged - take your pick of any string except the ninth!

Steve's suggested I have some sort of detatchable device that'll extend my vertical downwards, something that I can affix when I set the guitar up. It's a shortcoming on the LeGrande, but there's a limit to how much adjustment there is on this lever.
(Thinks: "Maybe I WILL be able to join the 'Sixth String Lower' club after all.....")

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Roger Rettig (NTSGA #147): Emmons LGIII(8+8), Fender Stringmaster (0+0) and a Zumsteel D10 on order!!!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Sep 2002 11:12 am

I had to make a LKV extension for my Emmons P-P.

Take a trip to the hardware store and look at the cabinet door handles.

I found one that is about the same thickness as my lever, and is flat on both ends that touch the lever.

It's shaped kina like this: |___|

I attach it to the bottom surface of the lever with a hose clamp that is custom bent to an oval shape, with the excess trimmed.

Had the wife make a little "sock" out of black lycra (strechy material) to slide over it so it looks like it belongs there (at first I used a length of bike innertube).

Takes just a sec to put on and lives in the pac-a-seat when not in use.

Definalty too many licks on that lever to let it go unused!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Sep 2002 11:45 am

I have a tune-able split on my Sierra for the B to Bb lower.
I like to use it to get around on the neck from the 1 to 4 chord and back, or 1 to 5 for example.
(I have the B>Bb on LKV.)

Key of E, Picking strings 3, 4, 5,:
Fret/Pedal+Lever
7/AB (E CHORD)
9/AB+LKV
11/AB+LKV
12/AB (A CHORD)
Walk it back down to E the same way.

Take it to the 5 chord:
7/AB (E)
6/AB+LKV
4/AB+LKV
2/AB (B)

For a quick 1-5-1 ending/turnaround in E:

Fret/Pedal+Lever
12/open (add a quick hit of the B to Bb to simulate a one-fret-back slide, only string 5 moves).
12/AB
13/AB
14/AB (5 Chord)
15/AB+LKV
16/AB+LKV
18/AB+LKV
19/AB (Back to the 1).

You can pick it quickly with double-stops and hit every fret from 14 to 19 on the 5 to 1 part if you want.
I often mix and match the picking and phrasing for different feeling licks.
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11 September 2002 at 12:46 PM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 11 Sep 2002 1:33 pm

Not exactly on topic, but I don't know why steel makers haven't solved the vrtical knee problem when closing the case. Kline had a setup on their vertical levers that would allow you to "flip" a switch (actually an adjusting screw) on a spring loaded thingie that allowed you to fold the lever into the bottom of the guitar eliminating the problem of it pushing against the case lid when closed. All you had to do was pull the lever back down into position.

Sorry for the off topic thing.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 11 Sep 2002 1:37 pm

I just added this change to my Sho-Bud guitar the other day. It's the only guitar I have that didn't have it. On mine the stop is under the knee lever so if I leave the screw a little loose I can reach under there and screw it up a little to get a full tone drop if I want to go along with my 6th string lower on my RKL.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 11 Sep 2002 3:09 pm

one of the uses for the B-Bb that I use is to go from I7 to IV7.
A7 at 8th fret string 3 4 5 (E's-F) release the the E-F lever and lower B-Bb at the same fret to get a D9.
the B-Bb works great if you can use the Eb-D-C# on string 2 at the same time. You will most certainly have to get familiar with the string-group 7 5 2 1 a whole lot more to get the most out of this.
It works great tuned split with the A pedal.
I have found it works with absolutely any lever or pedal combination: E's-F, E's-Eb, F#'s-G#, A A+B, B or C pedal alone. I have this change on the pedal closest to my right foot so I can play it with any other combination I like. That is also one reason why my RKL lowers string 2 & 9.
If you have the B-Bb on your guitar then there is a bunch of nice riffs/licks/chords just waiting to be found if you havent already found them.

Bengt

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 11 Sep 2002 3:51 pm

Has anyone considered a push forward left knee lever to lower the B notes? It keeps the leg and knee in a compatible position, to smoothly return to the A&B pedals, when a player works interchangeably. I have used an independent "GOLO" string attachment that worked very well. The pitches of the "GOLO" change, are not affected by dancing off and on the "A" pedal.

Bill H.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Sep 2002 6:21 pm

in practice that interval is out of tune if you don't use equal temperament.

- Bobby

This is true. I tune my guitar somewhere between just and tempered tuning to minimize these kinds of problems. My C# position chord (A pedal and R knee lever) is slightly less in perfect tune than the pedals up or down positions.