Billy Cardine, Please tell us about your Moog lap steel

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 28 Jul 2012 12:22 am

I saw a demonstration of the Moog standard guitar. The idea of the same technology in a steel is pretty interesting.

I wonder what it would take to build a pedal steel with the same system.

Michael Milton · Post by **Michael Milton** » 28 Jul 2012 12:16 pm

I have the first Moog Lap Steel sold. It is an interesting instrument. I don't see any particular reason why one could not build a pedal version.

There was quite a bit of tweaking done to move it to a lap steel but perhaps much of this would move right over.

You could talk to Wes Lambe www.wlguitars.com as he is the luthier that builds the MLS (each is custom). Step one would be to see if he will build one.

The other person would be Cyril Lance at Moog I can give you his email if you plan to move ahead on this

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Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 29 Jul 2012 2:01 am

Michael Milton wrote:I have the first Moog Lap Steel sold. It is an interesting instrument. I don't see any particular reason why one could not build a pedal version.

It could be done, but it would be cost prohibitive. I estimate that the cost of building a Moog pedal steel would be probably around $8 or 9,000. Possibly a lot more.

I'd love to have such an instrument, but unless I win the lottery, it's out of the question.

Billy Cardine · Post by **Billy Cardine** » 29 Jul 2012 7:38 am

Hey guys, gees, where to start...

Cyril and I were on a gig together but hadn't met previously. We had a great night and at some point I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask him what the possibility would be of making a Moog Lap Steel. Turns out, he'd already been thinking about it, and I guess I was sort of a catalyst, cause he called me in to the factory a week later with a hilarious prototype consisting of a Moog guitar body, and a sawed off neck of a cheap lapsteel. The first thing I noticed was that the scale length was too short, so he put a 3 inch piece of 2x4 between the 2 preexisting parts and glues a xerox copy of a fretboard to it all. I spent a couple months with the prototype, began learning how the technology could shape phrasing on a steel guitar, and making notes about it all.

Prototype 2 was a giant leap forward and came together just as the first one (dubbed 'the Monster'), was beginning to fold in half. We unveiled the concept for the steel at Moogfest 2010 and I played Proto 2 (Knubby) at the festival. Here's a vid from that show...I'd just figured out how to use my fingerpick as a slide...the look of concentration is re: trying to play strong notes, in tune...this technique has become a big part of my Moog Steel playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYvPwOitnpc

A few more refinements and we ended up with what is today the production model. I've had a blast with mine and have learned so much from my Moog buddies about analog circuits, MIDI sync, control voltages, etc. In a couple weeks, I'll be playing in Asheville with an upstart project I call the Asheville Analog Collective which a pile of interconnected analog/digital/computer components all synced up with the lapsteel. An early iteration of this is from a video we did shortly after my personal instrument was built...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePN5p_wQ8C4

The Moog steel has the capability to change the available vocabulary for a steel guitarist. There is alot that can be done with the limitless sustain. There are a couple modes of sustain, and I tend to use 'controlled' most often, where the dynamically dominant string is the one being sustained. There is another type of sustain that is 180 degrees from 'limitless' and it is Mute Mode. The pickups use their magnetics in such a way as to suck the vibration out of the string almost as soon as you hit the note. And this isn't something that happens digitally, you can watch the string vibrate and then quickly come to a halt. You can get a sense of it in this video...i move in and out of Mute mode with a pedal that controls many functions of the steel, depending on what setting you are on...listen for the chords...there is a bit of a slapback in there that hides the muting a little, but i think you can get an idea. It ends up being stacatto like a banjo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLiTVsKZqOs

There is a Moog filter onboard that adds some nice options. There is a articulated setting that kicks in the filter depending on how hard you are playing. The piezo pickup sounds pretty lovely mixed in.

I made an EP with this instrument that shows alot of it's different sides...

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/billycardine2

As far as making a pedal steel. There are a few technical issues that would make this near impossible. Not entirely, but as Mike mentioned, the pricing would get to be astronomic. The pickups technology relies on a pretty amazing symbiosis. Everything is analog and there is alot of room for undesired interactivity. The pickups can't really be made any larger due to demand vs production costs. They also need to have a particular spacing both between themselves but also against other metals on the body of an instrument. One of the last issues we had with the lapsteel was due to a metallic interference that was solved by using a sort of 'buffer' to interrupt the undesired crosstalk. I think it would take a really long time to dial in a pedal steel! If it was a six string, that might be more feasible, but to retrofit a more modern traditional steel with the existing components would be a real feat!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 29 Jul 2012 8:12 am

WOW! And Thank you Billy. You'll be hearing from me just as soon as I win that lottery.

BTW I listened to your Gypsy Jazz tracks. "Effing" awesome. You are WAY beyond such descriptions as great and fantastic.

Michael Milton · Post by **Michael Milton** » 29 Jul 2012 1:52 pm

Thanks for the background - most interesting

Brian Hunter · Post by **Brian Hunter** » 29 Jul 2012 8:29 pm

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 30 Jul 2012 11:30 am

i checked out the samples. interesting.

if it is so expensive, why not just go with some manner of guitar synth set up?? you could achieve a lot of great sounds with a roland synth hooked up to a 6 string lap and it wouldnt cost that much.

Mike Anderson · Post by **Mike Anderson** » 30 Jul 2012 12:20 pm

...or you could buy a synthesizer and learn to use the pitch wheel.

David Eastwood · Post by **David Eastwood** » 30 Jul 2012 4:40 pm

Bill Hatcher wrote:i checked out the samples. interesting.

if it is so expensive, why not just go with some manner of guitar synth set up?? you could achieve a lot of great sounds with a roland synth hooked up to a 6 string lap and it wouldnt cost that much.

You certainly could do that for a lot less money, but ultimately all you're doing is modifying the tone after it's produced. What's interesting about the Moog approach is the active manipulation of the string's behaviour in real time.

Michael Milton · Post by **Michael Milton** » 31 Jul 2012 1:42 am

Actually, this isn't about "modifying the tone after it is created". It is about driving the strings to create the tone in the first place. As one example by, shifting the drive between two points (the pickups) you can change the harmonics.

One might be able to create something similar with a model but the tactile interaction with the musician would be missing. This is a very visceral instrument to play and that too is part of the music.

Billy - I've had that album since you first released it... Great work. I'd love to hear what you and Harry Manx could do together. Give a listed to his Mysticsippippi material.

http://harrymanx.com/

Peter Harris · Post by **Peter Harris** » 31 Jul 2012 3:20 am

FWIW... after reading Bill Hatcher's comments...

..here is an early pic of my Tele 72 Custom hybrid (steel slide) with multi-lever Bigsby Palm Pedal and Roland GK3 internal pickup... it can feed the synth signal to my ageing Roland GR-30..

...guess there's always someone who's done it somewhere...

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 31 Jul 2012 6:29 am

Peter Harris wrote:FWIW... after reading Bill Hatcher's comments...

..here is an early pic of my Tele 72 Custom hybrid (steel slide) with multi-lever Bigsby Palm Pedal and Roland GK3 internal pickup... it can feed the synth signal to my ageing Roland GR-30..

...guess there's always someone who's done it somewhere...

]

yep!! thats what im talking about!! lots of potential there. i understand about the moog thingy, but for a very modest budget the roland would be my pick.

Billy Cardine · Post by **Billy Cardine** » 1 Aug 2012 10:25 am

Hey guys, i'm gonna try to touch on all these points...

Thanks x1000 for checking out the Six String Swing stuff!

The LapSteel is not too terribly expensive...base price of upper 2g's. The expensive thing would be retrofitting the existing hardware into a pedal steel. I'm sorry if that caused some confusion.

A Roland synth is awesome. I've been playing around with some of that stuff lately too and the new models especially are pretty extraordinary. It is, however, a very different animal than the Moog Lap Steel. I think anyone who is into analog gear will attest to the sound analog has. Digital products can be just as awesome, but they'll likely never be the same.

Mike A, that was hilarious!

Like David was saying, the Moog's strings are being affected in real time/space...you can watch it happen...there is a level of control and manipulation there that you don't get with a digi box. I've checked out some of the EH-X stuff that generates similar sonic spaces and it's cool but in a different way.

Michael, yeah, that mode can be adjusted with the pedal...i can't remember what Cyril calls it, but essentially you are adjusting the accentuated harmonics so your fundamental remains the same, but the overtones shift from low to hi...it's a cool effect and really shows itself on long held out single notes or chords...over say a 20 second period, you can shift the quality of the note around while still playing the same exact note.

Peter, that's quite a monster! Cool!

Bill, I don't think the two options you're comparing...Moog versus Roland Synth...are too interchangeable much beyond both being investments to make new sounds. You can outfit the Moog guitars with a hex plug to run into a Roland Synth and then have that whole side of things as well, but the Moog Lap Steel on it's own is just a different animal. Both are super fun though

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 1 Aug 2012 10:52 am

Billy, How does the Moog system compare with the Sustainiac and Fernandez Sustainer systems?

Billy Cardine · Post by **Billy Cardine** » 1 Aug 2012 11:00 am

Hey Mike, I don't have any personal experience with those systems, but from what i gather, i think the main differences w/ respect to sustain are 1) the moog has a controlled sustain mode that determines its sustain response based the the dynamics of the strings...the loudest note played will sustain, so for instance, i can pluck a string and lightly mute it with my palm to keep it under control and it will sustain indefinitely while i play other strings over the top of it. i can play the other strings louder than the ringing one so long as I mute them in time or they will become the focus of the sustain. It's a very different feel from full sustain mode where all strings are effected equally. This is the mode I use probably 80% of the time. 2) the Mute mode...the opposite of sustain where instead of the pickups agitating the strings, they work against each other to pull all the energy out of the string.

'Course the Moog tech relies on more than just the sustain feature, but it is certainly one of the main perks!

Billy Cardine · Post by **Billy Cardine** » 2 Aug 2012 7:03 am

Michael Milton, do you have a pic you can post of your Moog steel?