C6th: The Cop-out Neck

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Sep 2002 3:05 pm

The C neck...On the other hand all the sounds sound pretty much alike on it.

Well, just listen to Pete's C6th work, and then listen to Curly's...you might change your mind!

I contend that anyone could go from E9 to to C6 with relative ease but that going from C6 to E9 would be almost impossible to do well.

Well Marty, that's exactly what most of us old-timers did! Most non-pedal players started on A Maj., and then quickly graduated to the Jerry Byrd C6th (though a few found solace with the E Maj. when it was time for "Steel Guitar Rag"!) When we got a double-neck w/pedals, then we concentrated on the E9th.

JACK HEERN · Post by **JACK HEERN** » 3 Sep 2002 3:16 pm

BULL CRAP
Don't knock it 'cause you can't play it !!!!
Whine ain't the only thing to musick.
Jack

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Sep 2002 3:27 pm

This was a thread reflecting my annoyance with the judgement of this thread being a "waste of time". I'm just gonna leave it at that.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 September 2002 at 05:03 PM.]

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 3 Sep 2002 3:44 pm

...and some of you guys wonder why the Big Dogs won't get off the porch and play on this forum? [This message was edited by Earl Erb on 03 September 2002 at 04:45 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Sep 2002 3:54 pm

I think I better stop. I'm started to get irritated. Bye for now. I'm also canceling out the last thread.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 September 2002 at 05:02 PM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 4:01 pm

If the next claim to be made is that you somehow can play jazz and swing on E9, and forget C6, then there will be some serious debatin' goin' on here.

That's exactly my contention, Jeff!
I've been swingin' on E9 for decades (well, ok, only 2+) and as for jazz, I'll admit that I have a hard time finding all the voicings I need but they're there. It's just my limitations but I'm workin' on that.

I followed the 'tritone' and 'jazz-fun' thread w/a great deal of interest but found out that tritones are nothing but diminished chords which I've been usin' for years.

My 13 year old daughter just sat down next to me and asked, "How can anyone like this instrument, it's SO boring?"

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 03 September 2002 at 05:02 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Sep 2002 4:17 pm

Forget tri-tones. How about something as basic as playing a Major 7 chord? The Major 7 (and 6th, they are considered identical in jazz) require pedals on E9 plus weird string grips. On C6, you don't need pedals to play them. And once you tie up pedals just to play the most basic and fundamental voicing you need in every song you play, you are limitied in the alterations and extensions that you will need in just about every song. Anyway, that's just a start, for now.

Terry Wendt · Post by **Terry Wendt** » 3 Sep 2002 4:44 pm

So much for letting it go Mr. Lampert -

I must say some of us resent this previous statement you made here a tad -

You can always work out some instrumentation, surround yourself with the right rhythm and bass lines, and for one song, or one ride, play something great that sounds like it would comne from the other neck. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that you can play an entire genre of songs with a wide variety of chord changes and improvisations; it doesn't mean you can play all accompaniment, fills, solos, heads, etc. etc., at least not without ridiculous contortions. If the next claim to be made is that you somehow can play jazz and swing on E9, and forget C6, then there will be some serious debatin' goin' on here.

I believe this to be your opinion - not anywhere close to factual?
Correct?
Who you trying to fool - yourself?

2pT

PS Say... Were you not also the guy that was telling me all about the gNashville Recording Industry a few months ago? How it didn't matter what "steel forum readers" opinions were of a song?

Just Curious if you are the same guy

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 3 Sep 2002 4:53 pm

As I read these different comments, the way I see it the universal player has the right idea--the lesser of two evils? Joe

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 3 Sep 2002 4:57 pm

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I better stop. I'm starting to get irritated. Bye for now. I'm also canceling out the last thread.

Good decision Jeff, I read what you deleted. Now you can be assured of receiving your invites to our hero's fan club party's in the future.

I won't tell.

BobG · Post by **BobG** » 3 Sep 2002 5:19 pm

.

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[This message was edited by BobG on 03 September 2002 at 06:21 PM.][This message was edited by BobG on 03 September 2002 at 06:22 PM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 6:18 pm

Let's see; I have the Maj7 in the 'open' position w/Es #ed. Or by subbing string 2 for string 4 (is THAT what you meant by 'weird' grip?).
Also in AB pedals down by releasing B.
I can get other Maj7 triads w/other (less convenient) configurations.
Also the notes before the pedal is released or the lever activated are still in scale so they're used both ways; to create the Maj7 and to APPROACH the Maj7.

As far as the Maj7 being the same as the 6th; if you mean they can be used interchangeably or as part of a progression within a chord, then I agree. But the 6th and Maj7 are not really the SAME chord.

So anyway, I've got my sus2, b3, sus4, #4/b5, #5/b6, dom7, Maj7, in both octaves in most (granted, not ALL) inversions up and down the neck.

With those I find I can build everything I want to build. Sometimes I have to hunt for the best way to do it but that's part of my learning process.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 3 Sep 2002 8:10 pm

There is a very nice Mag 7th voicing I use allot on strings 9, 7,6,and 5 with the AB pedals down. The pedal moves are pretty cool in that spot also with a #11 and a mag6th being right under the B and A pedals respectively.

I have been spending most all my practice time on the C neck though. Its opening some musical doors and its a challenge for me.

Bob

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 8:18 pm

Absolutely, I forgot about that one.
I don't use it as often as I should though I do use the 976 grip as a IV chord alot.

And yes, if I had a C neck, I'd use it, too.
mostly for an armrest though
When I've learned everything there is to know about the E9, then I'll branch out!

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 3 Sep 2002 8:55 pm

I too like Crowbar prefer the C6 but play both. Mike said it best for those two words, Curly Chalker. He lit my fire in the 60s and have never grown tired of hearing that great tuning in the hands of an artist who took it out of the ranks of amateurs and elevated it to the heavens.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Sep 2002 9:01 pm

Maj7 in the 'open' position w/Es #ed.

Don't understand this. 1/2 tone or full-tone sharp? Which strings?

by subbing string 2 for string 4 (is THAT what you meant by 'weird' grip?).

yes

AB pedals down by releasing B

Don't get it. Which strings? Which pulls?

Also the notes before the pedal is released or the lever activated are still in scale so they're used both ways; to create the Maj7 and to APPROACH the Maj7.

Don't understand.

But the 6th and Maj7 are not really the SAME chord.

In many of the musical contexts we are talking about, they are. Major7, 6, 6/9, major 9, all the same for the purposes of orchestration and improvisation. Admittedly, if you play a country song, they're not, but that's not what we're talking about. C6 is built for jazz.

There is a very nice Mag 7th voicing I use allot on strings 9, 7,6,and 5 with the AB pedals down

That's true, but it ties up a foot that you can't afford to tie up. And the grip probably won't work with the other basic chords we are yet to discuss. The major 7 is too basic a chord to require pedal moves and special grips.

When I've learned everything there is to know about the E9

Not possible, for anyone.

Marty, your post is too hard for me to follow. If you want to continue this, could you please talk in terms of strings and pedals.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 September 2002 at 10:01 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Sep 2002 9:14 pm

This is the stupidest, most transparent flame bait you've posted to date, Marty. I can't believe that anyone takes you seriously.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 9:38 pm

Oops, I meant Es flatted not sharped! Sorry.
quote:

AB pedals down by releasing B

Don't get it. Which strings? Which pulls?

Either major triad?!? What’s hard to understand about that?
Fret 3: A pedal only= Cmaj7

quote:

Also the notes before the pedal is released or the lever activated are still in scale so they're used both ways; to create the Maj7 and to APPROACH the Maj7.

Don't understand.

Self-explanatory; don’t know how to phase this any more simply. I go from the major to the major 7th using pedal/lever activation IF I want that passing note.

“That's true, but it ties up a foot that you can't afford to tie up. “
But I’ve only got THREE pedals! That’s what they’re there for! I frequently play extended passages w/one or more pedals and/or levers activated.

“stupidest, most transparent flame bait you've posted to date”
You are ALWAYS so sweet to me b00b!

“without the pedals as a "gimmick" sound, what is to distinguish pedal steel from 6-string guitar.”
I can’t believe I let this slip by; I read it but it didn’t register.
That’s the whole bleedin’ point! It’s the PEDALS AND LEVERS, doggoneit!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 3 Sep 2002 9:46 pm

That's true, but it ties up a foot that you can't afford to tie up. And the grip probably won't work with the other basic chords we are yet to discuss. The major 7 is too basic a chord to require pedal moves and special grips.

My foots not tied up and there is nothing special about using the AB pedals or the D string as far as I know.

The E neck has a great singing voice that works well in many contexts. On one jazz gig I did not long ago I switched to the E neck for a couple tunes that Nora Jones was singing. She was singing jazz standards. On the jazz type gigs I play I find myself going to the E neck at least a couple times a night.

Geez, its just notes. Whatever works is fine.

Bob

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 3 Sep 2002 10:26 pm

You worked w/Norah Jones?
Holy Cow man!
She's in-f^%$&#g-credible!!!
I love this girl!
I'm impressed- no sh*t!

Ok, back to the topic...

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 4 Sep 2002 2:43 am

I like to play jazz on E9 sometimes too. There's some great stuff there! In some ways I've also tried to put some changes on my C6 that make it more "E9 like". For example, raising both E's to F on the rear neck is a change I like alot. Alot of the more modern stuff in jazz is thinking about chords with more open sounding intervals superimposed over bass lines as opposed to the more bebop approach with alot of altered dominant chords.

The one thing you can't do as well on E9 is play full voiced "chord melodies" from the bass line up...especially solo(unaccompanied)
BTW, do vibes only play 6th chords?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Sep 2002 6:29 am

Ok guys. Play your jazz on E9.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 4 Sep 2002 7:01 am

...and some of you guys wonder why the Big Dogs won't get off the porch and play on this forum?

Earl, the big dogs wear nice boots and don't want to step in this Bull Crap

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John

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 4 Sep 2002 7:12 am

Gee, THAT was helpful, thanks John...

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 4 Sep 2002 7:13 am

If it were only that easy, I would be playing alot more C6!!