Tuning Pedals Down?

Chris Harvey · Post by **Chris Harvey** » 18 Jul 2012 7:31 am

Excuse my ignorance but I've seen tuning pedals down referenced often and I'm not quite sure what it means. Does it mean you tune your open strings with A&B depressed and then tune your pedals as usual at the changer?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 18 Jul 2012 8:04 am

That means mashing A and B as you tune your Es. It helps defeat cabinet drop

Kevin Lichtsinn · Post by **Kevin Lichtsinn** » 18 Jul 2012 8:24 am

Huh. Interesting. I am going to try that and see how many cents change that makes. How many cents does it usally amount to?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 18 Jul 2012 8:32 am

It depends on the guitar. Works every time.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Jul 2012 2:45 pm

I don't think it makes a lot of difference unless you have a guitar that's dropping more than 5 cents. (Most "good" guitars fall into the 2-4 cent category, IMHO.) Some, like my Fender have no drop, so it's a non-issue there. Anyhow, I think it's more important to play in-tune, and a really good player can compensate for a wealth of trivial shortcomings in his gear.

Like a few others here, I think the "cabinet drop" issue is very often over-exaggerated, mostly due to the proliferation of modern digital tuners.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 18 Jul 2012 3:06 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:I don't think it makes a lot of difference unless you have a guitar that's dropping more than 5 cents. (Most "good" guitars fall into the 2-4 cent category, IMHO.) Some, like my Fender have no drop, so it's a non-issue there. Anyhow, I think it's more important to play in-tune, and a really good player can compensate for a wealth of trivial shortcomings in his gear.

Like a few others here, I think the "cabinet drop" issue is very often over-exaggerated, mostly due to the proliferation of modern digital tuners.

What Donny said

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 18 Jul 2012 9:15 pm

This is my method for tuning the cabinet drop out of all-pull steels (not push-pull)

Tune most of the strings approximately up to pitch, in order to get the guitar under tension.

Press A + B pedals, and tune all the strings that are not raised (1 2 4 7 8 9) up to pitch, with the machine heads.

Release the pedals, and take particular note of the pitch of the 4th string. It will probably be sharp.
Don't alter it.

Tune the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 10th string by ear (with the machine heads) until they sound in tune with the 4th (and 8th string)

Press pedals A + B, and tune strings 3 5 6 10 up to pitch (with the nylon tuners on the endplate)
Check the 4th and 8th strings to make sure that they are still at the correct pitch

Release A + B pedals.

Press pedals B + C, and tune strings 4 + 5 up to pitch, with the nylon tuners.

Release pedals

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 19 Jul 2012 4:44 am

Chris,

If you are asking whether you should start tuning the guitar by tuning with pedals down. That would be wrong......The leverage of the lowers and the raises can only be accurately tuned after the strings are stationary which is when they have been tuned without pedals....Starting with the pedals down, after you tune them and release the strings, the pedals will have to be retuned to get the leverage right......And tuning to 442 accomplishes better what those whom believe tuning with pedals down accomplishes towards cabinet drop......Why that sounds more in tune to the center of pitch of the band has to do with the register of the instrument being like a violin. The violin in orchestral situations tunes their A from the next octave up from 440 on the piano....which is about 441.5 to 442 depending on who tunes the piano.

Paul.

Jerry Fessenden · Post by **Jerry Fessenden** » 19 Jul 2012 5:22 am

Paul, we have talked about this in the past ...seems like Jeff Newman also said similar things.Your method works so well. BTW, have you ever seen any steel that had "no drop"? I think every steel that I've seen drops when pedals are pressed down ..at least on a meter ...I also think that steels have a livelier sound if there is some cabinet drop. Just my thought. JF

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 19 Jul 2012 7:47 am

The only "compromise" I do in tuning my guitar is to tune the E's (open) 2 cents sharp.

I do use a modified (modified for my guitar) Newman tuning chart referenced to 440 (not 442 as the later chart is). I used to tune everything to "0" and people kept telling me I was out of tune. I started using the Newman chart and no one ever told me I was out of tune anymore.

I don't work with a keyboard player. If I did, I may have to change my tuning method.

Arne Odegard · Post by **Arne Odegard** » 20 Jul 2012 7:25 am

I'm confused Paul...
Do I tune every thing to 440 (pedals and all) and then go back and tune my E's to 442?

Ransom Beers · Post by **Ransom Beers** » 20 Jul 2012 7:32 am

Only time I have cabinet drop is when I'm putting it in the case then I sometimes drop it but a lil' pc. 'o' baling wire puts it back in shape.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 20 Jul 2012 2:11 pm

An E referenced to A=442 is approximately 10 cents sharper than one referenced to A=440.

I tune my E's with the A+B pedals down, because on my Emmons LeGrand when I use the F pedal with the C# it is in tune better on the fret.

Thanx,
Jim

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 20 Jul 2012 7:28 pm

Arne Odegard wrote:I'm confused Paul...
Do I tune every thing to 440 (pedals and all) and then go back and tune my E's to 442?

Sorry for the confusion,

I personally tune the E's to 442 and tune everything by ear to that note as the center pitch. And for those who prefer tuning every note to the tuner I recommend the Newman 442 chart.

Paul

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 Jul 2012 2:15 am

Paul, if I tune everything to 442, using the Newman chart or the pre programmed Peterson Strobe-O-Flip, its a hassle just getting everything tuned up.

If I tune using the old Newman "440" chart (except the E's 2 cents sharp), everything seems to just fall in place.

I'm not working with a keyboard, which could make a difference.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 21 Jul 2012 7:59 am

It seems that one person says A442 and another says A440 with 2 cents sharp as the same. They are not! If Paul really tunes his steel to A=442, he will be out of tune by 10 cents sharp, unless the group he is playing with also tunes to A=442. If instead the E's are tuned 2 cents sharp with the pedals down, and the rest are tuned to the root of A440, then you should be in tune with the group that also tuned to A440.

I still get the best and quickest tuning for my use, by using a C or A tuning fork as the root, then tune all the rest by ear. At the end I check the E's with the A+B pedals down and then tweek up both E's till I'm happy. This may not be scientific or measurealbe, but it works for me.

My recommendation is to try all methods of tuning you can, but then settle on one that allows you to tune up quickly, and also train your ear so you know when something needs tweakin during the gig.

Thanx,
Jim

(steel player for last 58 yrs; piano tuner for last 42 yrs)

Jerry Kippola · Post by **Jerry Kippola** » 21 Jul 2012 8:21 am

I found that 442 works best, it's the best compromise for me esp playin with other guitars/bass . If u tune the e's with a+b down, you're still quite flat. I use a pitchblack strobe tuner, makes it easy. Tune the e's and b's by tuner, rest by ear for pretty much no beats--

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 21 Jul 2012 10:31 am

I always press A and B so see what the 4th string is doing. With pedals down I tune that string on the 440 pitch.
Then I release A and B, and see the E rises to 441-441.5
From there I tune by ear G# and B, as a base for the other strings.
With pedals down, I tune the A and C#. C# is always the compromise string for the F-pedal..
JJ

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 21 Jul 2012 12:37 pm

w: pedals down i tune my Es to 440 - then release A&B
then i go on & tune via harmonics when i'm at home
otherwise i have the values of the harmonics in my stroborack so i can tune in a live situation in silence

before tuners, tuning by harmonics was the way

start by tuning your Es ( 4&8 ) w: pedals A&B down to 440, 441 or 442
whichever you prefer
release A & B & proceed :

using harmonics on each :
on left : reference tone / on right : string to tune
you'll be using frets 5 7 & 12 mostly
you will also need a harmonic on the 4th fret - certainly not as easy as on frets 5,7 & 12
look for it, it's there

lever E lowers Es a half
lever F raises Es a half
lever G raises F#s a whole
lever D lowers Eb a half
lever V lowers Bs a half

E : string 8 fret 5 / string 4 fret 12

since your Es are tuned you get the B note on fret 7 on strings 4 & 8

B : String 4 fret 7 / string 5 fret 5
B : string 8 fret 7 / string 5 fret 12
B : string 8 fret 7 / string 10 fret 5
B : string 10 fret 5 / string 5 fret 12

F# : string 5 fret 7 / String 1 fret 12
F# : string 1 fret 12 / string 7 fret 5

G# : string 8 fret 4 ( yep 4) / string 6 fret 5
G# : string 4 ( yep 4 ) / string 3 fret 5

Eb : string 5 fret 4 / string 2 fret 5

E : string 8 w: A&B fret 5 / string 6 w: A&B fret 7

A : string 6 w: A&B fret 5 / string 3 w: A&B fret 12
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 12 / string 9 fret 7

C# : string 5 w: A&B fret 12 / string 10 w: A&B fret 5
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 4 w: B&C fret 7
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 5 w: B&C fret 5

Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 4 w lever E fret 12
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 8 w: lever E fret 5

B(G# lever): string 5 fret 5 / string 7 w: lever G fret 4
G# : string 3 fret 12 / string 1 w: lever G fret 12

F : string 5 w: A&B fret 4 / string 4 w: lever F fret 5
F : string 4 w: lever F fret 12 / string 8 w: lever F fret 5

Bb : string 7 fret 4 / string 5 w: lever V fret 5
Bb : string 5 w: lever V fret 12 / string 10 w: lever V fret 5

D : string 9 fret 5 / string 2 w: lever D fret 12

when tuning strings 1(F#) - 2(Eb)- 7(F#) note that the root/reference is B ......NOT... E
F# being the fifth & Eb being the third of B :
the fifth of B gets the same treatment/value as the fifth of E
the third of B gets the same treatment/value as the third of E
last but not least (the plot sickens lol)
when tuning F# on string 4 w: pedal C : F# is the root tone since the ref is an F# minor chord
here again it will get it's own treatment/value

Compromise is inevitable when tuning certain strings & combinations of levers &/or pedals
like F# on string 4 w: pedal C
& Eb on 4 & 2

Jamie Lennon · Post by **Jamie Lennon** » 21 Jul 2012 1:41 pm

After listening to Paul's advice a few months back.....i do the same....E's 442.....everything else by ear....but in some rushed gigs with just enough to setup....the Newman chart helps a lot too.

Jamie

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 Jul 2012 4:06 pm

I find these tuning threads quite amusing!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 21 Jul 2012 4:08 pm

I turn the knobs til it sounds right.

Jamie Lennon · Post by **Jamie Lennon** » 21 Jul 2012 5:07 pm

Tuning is always different for everyone.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 21 Jul 2012 5:13 pm

Get a Kline, and stop fooling with these tuning issues.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 21 Jul 2012 9:09 pm

Double post.