Back to the basics

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 12 Jul 2012 5:16 am

Personally, I'd say let the X lever wait til you understand it and miss it (you can also move down a fret and hit B and F).
Likewise the 1st and 2nd string raise. I used a finger pull for a year and a half, only rearranging my copedent when I got tired of it.

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 12 Jul 2012 7:17 am

Paul, as I mentioned earlier, the Sho~Bud that I am currently using has 8 pedals and only 2 knee levers. My previous guitar was an SD10 with 4 & 5, so obviously I've had to do some major adapting from what I was used to.

What would you recommend for the two knee levers for those who only have two? It's not my guitar, I don't have one of my own now, so adding more knees to it is not an option for me.

Thanks.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Jul 2012 7:24 am

Lem,

Early student models like the Maverick combined two levers into one. It lowered strings 2 to D and 8 to D#. That's a good one for a guitar with only two knee levers, but it does make some course material hard to play. My advice is to find parts and add a 3rd knee lever.

I have a pedal to the left of my A pedal that lowers strings 2 and 9 to C#. I've been told that's what was used on the original "Cross My Heart" intro. Again, it's a good choice when you have a guitar with lots of pedals but only 2 knee levers.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 12 Jul 2012 7:48 am

I'd think about lowering 2 and 9 with pedal 0 and raising and lowering the Es with the knees

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 12 Jul 2012 7:51 am

Thanks for the suggestions. I should mention I guess, that the knees currently raise and lower both E's.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 12 Jul 2012 7:56 am

I don't know how you feel about doublefooting, But if you are not opposed to it, the G lever could go to P8.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Jul 2012 8:50 am

Lane Gray wrote:I'd think about lowering 2 and 9 with pedal 0 and raising and lowering the Es with the knees

The problem is that the D note on string 2 is most useful with A+B or B+C pedals down. That's why the lower to D should always be on a lever.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 12 Jul 2012 10:23 am

Great thread! I've been reflecting this back to basics stuff and my most humble feeling is, no pedals or knees at all. Go ahead. Maul me. I don't care. Because then I came across this statement in the thread "gotta get me one of them pedal steels".

I have been a nonpedal player since I started playing about five years ago. .... got behind my frinds pedal steel...I almost instantly fell in love with the sound and quickly became addicted to the one to four chord change with the A and B pedals.I instantly could play a couple of simple 3 chord songs even though I have almost no pedal steel experience. Well, the rest of the story, you might have already guessed. I am in the process of putting enough nickles and dimes together to get a decent S10 pedal guitar.I will probably have to sell my Remingtom S8, but I have been bitten by the pedal steel bug and I have just got to have one!!

I have come to the conclusion, at least for now, that the wisdom of our pedal steel forefathers in creating a universal changer (if thats the right expression) is akin to the constitution of the united states! Thats right, I said it! It has the ability to change and evolve as you see fit.
They are both evolving as we speak. The constitution is a living document. The steel is a living musical instrument. Yes, the rudiments are imperetive. One should learn spelling & grammer before writing sonnets. Or should they? It's art, not math.
Once you have some seat time, tune it the way you want, even D6.

Set your copedent the way you want. Thanks to our pedal steel forefathers, the only limitations are (mostly) mechanical & creative. If you want to try to sound like the big E, set and tune it like him. Take his courses. Go get it! If you like a certain players style and choice of notes, do it that way, with that players changes.
And here's the jumping off point as far as I'm concerned. If one wants to sound like nothing you've ever heard before, one can use tone gadgets,ie.electronics, or, invent your own style.
Again, personally, I play 3x4. standard emmons set-up. Thats more than enough for me. And guess what. I'm not the one thats going to set the world on fire with my new sound.
The "traditional" pedal steel sound is pretty much 1960's technology, guitar & other equiptment, amps & such. So, if the steel is going to evolve past the point of a sound effects machine to compliment "modern" country music, (which is pretty much 1970's product) someone is going to have to throw out all the rules, or invent their own rules from scratch, and hope they catch on, so folks have something new to emulate. It aint gonna be me friends, because I'm too set in my ways.
Maybe you will do it.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 12 Jul 2012 10:47 am

I just added a compensator so my 6th string G#-F# lever has a usable G with B pedal...I am using it a lot!

My vertical is b0b's E-F#, for a I->Iim or a pedals down I->VIm, for me that is really useful, smoothing out the B+C->A+B - although I'm a relatively new player, I use this a LOT for the bands (alt-country, more minor chords) I'm in.

Point being... I wouldn't dismiss having the vertical, it just gives you the option for adding whatever you need to play a particular kind of music easily...which is even more useful for newbies like me.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 12 Jul 2012 11:43 am

I'm kinda glad I played a D10 8+2 Shobud for the first 25 years.(and I also didn't lower the 4th string). There's a world of great music to be had there! Enough to create plenty of beautiful music for a lifetime. Of course there's also a world of music that the right player can make on a non pedal 6 string tuned to an open chord...or a one string diddley-bow for that matter.

But if you want to play steel and use all the big, full voiced chords that a piano or a guitar are able to make....

More is More!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 12 Jul 2012 1:08 pm

Steve Lipsey wrote:I just added a compensator so my 6th string G#-F# lever has a usable G with B pedal...I am using it a lot!

How does that compensator work, Steve?

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 12 Jul 2012 2:49 pm

b0b-
simple! it is a Williams, but that doesn't matter.

B pedal is left alone. My RKL has G->F# on 6. I just added a pull rod to the same bell crank, but going to the slowest raise on the changer for that string, because without it, you can't get both notes in tune...tune the G and the F# is flat.

So when you press RKL +B,, it goes to G, the raise rod is slack.
Do just the RKL and the raise is engaged (just the way it works, you don't do anything special).

So tune the lower to "G": with RKL+B, then tune the F# with RKL alone, using the Raise rod tuning nut to bring it back up to F# from slightly flat...

Same as a split screw, but I like it better because I don't need another tool to adjust it...

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Jul 2012 1:40 pm

To all the beginners checking in......Here's a little about the history of lever setups from the 60's forward....The greatest minds on this instrument created these lever concepts, not me.....I've got no horse in this arena.....Historically the first lever recordings when knee levers started gaining prominence in Country and Country Rock music were......

Lowering the D# to D

Lowering both E's to Eb

Raising both E's to F

Raising both F#s to G ..........For that "Bottle Let Me Down" and "Swinging Doors" sound...I always called it the Mooney lever as a kid.

In the mid 60's Buddy introduced the whole tone lower from D# to C# and played that unison counterpoint resolve on "Touch My Heart" and everyone, at the time like me, that had to have this beautiful sound on their guitar, were also attached to the half step lower....The resolve was to put half steps on that lever and at the same time some one (I believe it was Buddy) also added the 9th string D to C# lower on the same lever....Which was brilliant because there is no conflict with what it adds with the other lower.

I sat in on many jam sessions and played a lot of steels back in the late 60's and early 70's during the DJ convention and I remember almost every guitar had all of these lever changes. The only disagreement was in the placement....

It wasn't until the late 60's early 70's when up levers came along and the Bb's were lowered and the G# lowered that players started really exploring other variations all over the place.....One thing for certain, most, if not all, of the greatest E9th players cut their teeth on these earliest changes.

It just makes sense to follow the first pioneers of this tunings path if you are a beginner......

Lem,

2 knees is not enough to play the sounds of what's been played from that 60's period...The above setup will get you closer than any 3 pedal 4 lever setup I've ever played.........The two levers you have is what I would use if I could only have two.....The third one would be to drop the D# to D and C# and lower the D.....The fourth the F#'s with a half stop on the F#'s to G and then up to G#.

Paul

John Castelletti · Post by **John Castelletti** » 13 Jul 2012 3:42 pm

Franklin wrote: Raising both F#s to G ..........For that "Bottle Let Me Down" and "Swinging Doors" sound...I always called it the Mooney lever as a kid.

Mr. Franklin,

As a beginner to both PSG and theory, as well as a HUGE Mooney fan (he is the one that made me want to pick PSG up) can you give an example of how to use this lever in a Mooney style?

Thanks for taking some time to help us new guys.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 13 Jul 2012 4:05 pm

Ralph Mooney didn't have that lever. I'm not sure how it got to be associated with his style of playing.

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 13 Jul 2012 8:03 pm

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question.

Paul, I really appreciate your reply. I had those changes in the past, and really miss them now. I can still get a lot of music out of it like it is, but not all that I want. Always wondered why Sho~Bud only put two knee levers on some of their later model Pro II Customs.

Thanks again everyone.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Jul 2012 9:25 pm

b0b wrote:Ralph Mooney didn't have that lever. I'm not sure how it got to be associated with his style of playing.

b0b,

Is that a bad thing?........Whether Mooney had it, or not, it is still one of the four earliest knee levers...Heck many players lowered the E's to Eb after they heard Day and Lloyd play things that sounded like they were lowering the top E. Neither was lowering the top E......Mooney certainly utilized the sound of upper register dominant 7ths in his playing.

Personally, I always referred to it as the Mooney lever for its sound..... The upper register 7ths are a big part of that early Haggard and Bakersfield style which was Mooney's home turf.......I've also heard Jeff and others relate to the lever as the west coast sound.....That might be why many relate it to Mooney's style....

...Lloyd also utilizes that change with beautiful ballad moves that do not sound like sevenths....His many uses of that lever are much harder for a student or novice to recognize. So the Mooney reference is only a starting point of what this change brings to the table.

Paul

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 14 Jul 2012 1:41 pm

Lots of good info here, so far. Maybe PF, can say something about the #6 - G# to G KL - lower that I heard Hughey using so many years. Just a little background on who may have been one of the first to use it on a record, etc. The #7 F# to E lower is another one I'm interested in. I first heard the late Gary Hogue use it. Thanks guys for all of your input. Let's keep it going.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 14 Jul 2012 2:49 pm

b0b wrote:Ralph Mooney didn't have that lever. I'm not sure how it got to be associated with his style of playing.

Franklin wrote:b0b,

Is that a bad thing?........Whether Mooney had it, or not, it is still one of the four earliest knee levers...

I'm not saying that anything is "bad", Paul. The topic here is "Back to the Basics". I'm just pointing out that the G lever isn't needed to get Mooney licks, because Moon himself didn't have it. Heck, he didn't even have a high F# string to put it on!

I have a G lever but I don't use it much. I mostly use it to copy Paul Franklin licks.

But seriously, I played without any 1st string raise for about 10 years. I remember seeing Jeff Newman pull the first string behind the bar to get that sound on the one song in his show that needed it. So to my way of thinking, it is far from being an essential change.

You obviously have a different opinion, so let's just agree that we disagree on this point. I don't like to argue about the technical minutia of steel guitar copedents.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 14 Jul 2012 3:30 pm

Well, I looked at others copedents, asked questions, read theory books and came up with the copedent below that is on my Williams 700 Series:

Maybe it fits what is needed, I think it can probably do most any chord needed.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 Jul 2012 7:31 am

b0b,

.......It seemed like a friendly debate to me......

Since we're done here......At least those who play other instruments will have something to read on the subject. Hopefully something said will lead them to understand the theory behind the F# to G change. And through their knowledge of harmony they can decide whether having a b7 to add to the major and minor triads with A & B pedals down and a #9 in the open positions of both the major and minor triads is essential.

Paul

admin · Post by **b0b** » 15 Jul 2012 8:28 am

Dickie,

Most people put the F lever on LKL because it works better ergonomically with the A pedal (your P-2). LKR works for a few players (notably Lloyd Green), but it's a awkward twist of the leg for most.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 Jul 2012 2:33 pm

b0b is right about the placement of the LKL and the LKR lowering and raising the E's....Its more comfortable to the ankle to switch those two levers around....Since we can be trained to do many difficult moves physically and if you are already comfortable with those moves there is absolutely no advantage other than the physical move to switching them around.

And lowering the G# to G is an option to raising the F#s to G.

Paul

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 15 Jul 2012 5:43 pm

The Newbie is supposed to have all those pedals and levers so he can play Jeff Newman’s tablature but from previous posts I was lead to believe he shouldn't use the tablature (paint by numbers) to learn how to play.
So if he is not allowed to use Newman's tab he won't know the difference and b0b's 3&3 will work fine. All the intervals are there and that was what I was lead to believe he should learn instead of tab.
But if he wants to have a double cluster F... wrapped around both legs and spend most of the night tuning call me an idiot and have at it. I'm happy for him.

Disclaimer: Stuart and I are Paul Franklin Fans. The view is just not the same at our level as it is at Paul’s level. But that should leave a lot of open space for interesting debate.

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 15 Jul 2012 5:53 pm

I just got this from Lloyd.

Hello Bob,

Since there is an ample amount of talk on the “Back to the Basics” topic concerning the E to F knee lever change it might me of interest to some readers to hear a bit more history from the first to have it.

If you would post my comments I’d be grateful.

The day in 1967 when I first found the E to F change was like a very bright light bulb had turned on inside my head. I instinctively recognized this was the missing link in the E9th tuning that had troubled me since my career as a session player started 3 years earlier. There were many sessions on which I felt trapped by the lack of symmetry I would encounter when playing some new phrase or idea, having to find a less than comfortable way to complete an idea……until that day!

When I asked David Jackson at Sho-Bud to put the change on my steel there was no template to guide us since no one had, to my knowledge or his, ever had the pure E to F with no other ambiguous strings added to the equation. And most certainly Sho-Bud had never been asked to do so.

The only knee lever position open on my simple set-up was exactly where it remains today. I had only the L knee R available so I said, “ Put it there. I don’t want to change anything I have.”

Immediately, Sho-Bud started adding this new change in the exact same position to their new steels being sent to various locations. Almost as quickly they started getting complaints from people buying the guitars about the uncomfortable, ergonomically awkward position this pedal was in.

I realized almost as fast that it would be unacceptable to most players in the L to R position. From that point on since everybody wanted to talk to me about the pedal I would suggest it be placed anywhere other than where I have it. Fortunately most do.

J. D. Maness and I remain two of the few steel players to have it in the position we do.

I can tell you, though it may look awkward, it has never presented a problem for me. I left the Sho-Bud shop that day thinking that now I had exactly what I mathematically needed to cut records and play music, any music I could conceive, without impediment.

I remain convinced the E to F change was indeed the link that unified the E9th chromatic tuning.

Lloyd Green

The Steel Guitar Forum

Back to the basics

psg

Straight from Lloyd