7th string

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 28 Jun 2012 3:04 pm

I've noticed with different combinations I have trouble getting string 7 to tune to different combinations of chords. Is my ear that bad?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 28 Jun 2012 3:16 pm

No. There is probably nothing wrong with your ears. In fact, your ability to notice the tuning problems is a good indicator that you have good pitch discrimination.

If you tune the 7th string (F#) to concert pitch, it will be noticeable sharp when you play the minor chord on strings 7, 6, & 5 with A & B pedals depressed. If you flatten the pitch of the 7th string, so the minor chord sounds just right, then it will be noticeably flat when compared to the first string (high F#), and when you play the major chords on 8, 7, & 5 with the 8th string lowered a half tone.

Take your pick, or split the difference.

Or you could add a compensator to the 7th string that operates off of either the A or B pedal. I haven't done this but others have and say it works well. Most apparently add it to the A pedal (& they lower the first string also). With the compensator you tune the open note to full concert pitch and then lower it with the compensator.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jun 2012 3:21 pm

You have to choose whether it'll blend with B or A
Or tune to ET: crap like this is what led Bach to invent it

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 28 Jun 2012 3:24 pm

Why does it do this?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 Jun 2012 3:33 pm

Because we flatten the A a bit, and we sharpen the B. That's how JI vs. ET works.
Then, because from B to F# is ANOTHER 5th, we want to sharpen it some more (about 5 cents E to B, then another 5 cents B to F#).
But we tune A about 5 cents flat, and to get the D chord, that goes 5 cents flat of THAT, then the D-F# third, you'll wanna flatten THAT 11 cents.
Heading up the cycle, sharp 9-10 cents.
Heading DOWN the cycle, FLAT, umm, 21.

BTW, these numbers have nothing to do with cabinet drop: this is just restoration of JI.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 28 Jun 2012 4:26 pm

Lane Gray wrote:Or tune to ET: crap like this is what led Bach to invent it

Sorry to go off topic here, but I think this is the second time you posted this misconception. Old Bach did not invent Equal Temperament. It was known long before his time, but not used much.
There is long & lively debate of what tunings Bach used. Almost no one maintains that he used ET for anything, even the Well-Tempered Klavier books.
... enough of this off-topic for now ... there is plenty to read about it on the internet ...

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 28 Jun 2012 4:30 pm

Tony Williamson wrote:Why does it do this?

There is plenty of good information available on the internet (and less so on The Steel Guitar Forum) if you search for Just Intonation, Equal Temperament, Meantone, etc.

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 28 Jun 2012 5:15 pm

If A is tuned to 440 Hz, E above sounds in tune at 660Hz.
B below sounds in tune with the E at 495Hz.
F# sounds in tune with the B at 742.5 Hz.
C# sound in tune with the F# at about 556.9 Hz.
G# sounds in tune with the C# at 835.3 Hz.
D# (Eb) sounds in tune with G# at 626.5 HZ
Bb sounds in tune with that Eb at 939.7 Hz
F sounds in tune with that Bb at 704.8 Hz.
C sounds in tune with that F at 1057.2 Hz.
G sounds in tune with that C at 792.9 Hz.
D sounds in tune with that G at 1189.3 Hz.

To get A to sound in tune with that D, it would have to be tuned 892Hz. But for that octave up A to sound in tune with A 440, it would have to be 880Hz.

So, the various temperaments make adjustments so that octaves are exact doubles. Equal temperament sounds slightly out of tune, but to the same extent in every key. Others sound better in some keys but terrible in others.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 28 Jun 2012 6:27 pm

Here's another reason why it sounds out of tune in some chords to you: with different chords, it's fulfilling a different function or place in the chord. The problem is we like our fifths pure but we tend to like our thirds (the middle note of the chord) flattened a bit. So, lets say you get the seventh string tuned up nicely, concert pitch, needle straight up on the meter on your tuner (or however it displays). This will likely make it in tune with the fifth string, B, which many of us tune straight up. Now, when you press down the A and B pedals and tune the fifth strings raise C-Sharp, it is the third of an A Major chord, and you likely tune it a little flat. Now, if you hold pedals A and B down and play the seventh string with strings five and six, you have an F# minor chord, but that slightly flat C# is no longer a third, it is now the fifth of the F# minor chord and won't sound right against the seventh string.

This is essentially the same thing Paul said in his second paragraph. You could add to the misery by pushing down the B pedal and playing strings 9-7-6 to get a D major chord. Now the seventh string F# is the third, and tuned straight up, it will sound too sharp.

As Paul said: split the difference (tune the seventh sting slightly flat to begin with) or use compensators. Or(!) learn to love the complexity of it and find ways to use the bar, vibrato, and such to get around the intonation issues.

If you're lucky, you'll find a guitar that detunes and lowers the seventh string when you press A and or B down....

Dan

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 28 Jun 2012 7:32 pm

Pedals up.. it is 2 in the Nashville # system.
Pedals down it is the 6th and can sub for a 4 chord.
A compensator that lowers it in the pedals down position will help.
Tune it to the note that you tend to hang on more often and the note position that you tend to hit and run will be secondary or probably sharp in the case of pedals up.
Some guitars are not as much as a problem as others.
My Carter has compensators and the Emmons Push Pull or ZB does not seem to need them.
Mileage may very

If you want to hear a real dilemma check your 6th string with the A and F lever

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 28 Jun 2012 11:01 pm

Thanks everyone. I will definately study this. And dan...that's exactly what I do....

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 29 Jun 2012 6:06 am

Ken Metcalf wrote: My Carter has compensators and the Emmons Push Pull or ZB does not seem to need them.

Frequency ratios of both ET and JT and the associated corrections needed to conform to a system are of course independent of steel guitar brand, or musical instrument, for that matter.
I have often wondered (still do) why at least the 7th string compensator is not a standard feature of every pedal steel guitar.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 29 Jun 2012 6:32 am

This is one of the first problems I noticed when I only had two pedals. Over the years, I found I can live with it better if I tune the F# ALMOST up to pitch, say only a cent or two flat.

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 29 Jun 2012 7:41 am

I have more trouble with this discrepancy than any other. I've always thought if I tune the fifth perfect I won't tune the third flat. When I tune a string to the fifth up to pitch I can hear a wave. It slows as I near true and then I guess superposes on itself when the pitch is reached. ( quits ) any of you guys hear this wave? You have to be hitting both strings ...the root and its fifth.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 29 Jun 2012 8:33 am

Hans Holzherr wrote:
Ken Metcalf wrote: My Carter has compensators and the Emmons Push Pull or ZB does not seem to need them.
Frequency ratios of both ET and JT and the associated corrections needed to conform to a system are of course independent of steel guitar brand, or musical instrument, for that matter.
I have often wondered (still do) why at least the 7th string compensator is not a standard feature of every pedal steel guitar.

Compensators are available on most brands all you have to do is pay for them and then tune them.
My Carter has one that lowers the 7th string when the A-B are pressed and the E raise pulls the 6th string sharper.
Kind of a slippery slope... you can keep compensating more pulls till you are blue in the face it is a lot to keep in line.
Paul Franklin uses a lot of compensators and has a good grip on it but I find it would be hard for me to keep track of it all.

I guess I should have said My Emmons Push Pull or ZB does not seem to need them as much but some guitar Brands are more forgiving as you play them and some are almost unplayable.

JIm Flynn at Lone Star steels has found a difference in using a shorter body being more stable.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 29 Jun 2012 8:51 am

Right. Because a JI fifth is a precise 3/2 relationship. You just described what we call "zero-beating," tuning an interval til it reaches mathematical purity.
You can also, with a bit more ear training, hear the beats in a major third, and zero-beat that one too. I wanna say that's a 4/5

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 29 Jun 2012 9:13 am

I find thirds beats are easiest to hear in harmonics (fourth fret on the root string, seventh fret on the string with the third)

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 29 Jun 2012 10:18 am

Crap...I thought I was special...lol haha

admin · Post by **b0b** » 29 Jun 2012 1:38 pm

You are hearing the difference between the large major second (9/8 frequency ratio) and the small major second (10/9 frequency ratio). To tune the beats out, you have to use one or the other.

A lot of people have a micro-tonal compensator pull on their 7th string. Others tune to the 9/8 and rely on cabinet drop to get close to the 10/9.

Reference: www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html

Bob Mc Donald · Post by **Bob Mc Donald** » 29 Jun 2012 3:11 pm

I have compensator's on strings 1 & 7 on my A & C pedals

Tony Williamson · Post by **Tony Williamson** » 29 Jun 2012 3:36 pm

Is the compenator just another pull rod....I've never seen one....

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 29 Jun 2012 5:43 pm

right. Just another pullrod, but it barely nudges instead of a half-step or more

admin · Post by **b0b** » 29 Jun 2012 6:24 pm

The difference between the "two F sharps" is over 20 cents. If you allow some slow beats in your tuning instead of insisting on pure JI harmonies, you can reach the point where the cabinet drop caused by A+B will produce an acceptable F#.

I used a compensator on the 7th string for over 20 years and always swore that it was necessary. Now I've adjusted my fine tuning enough that I don't need it. I think that I still sound in tune, even though the harmonies aren't absolutely perfect.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 29 Jun 2012 6:34 pm

Pedal steel requires a well tempered tantrum while tuning.

Clete

Allen Kentfield · Post by **Allen Kentfield** » 3 Jul 2012 3:39 pm

Well said!