Something Tut Said

Dennis Manuel · Post by **Dennis Manuel** » 7 Aug 2002 4:35 pm

When comparing steel sounds the most repeated statement is, "It sounds fine but it doesn't sound as good as an old Emmons push pull". The Emmons P/P guitar in my opinion is the guitar that all others are judged by when it comes to sound.
Buddy Emmons as we all know is a fantastic player and when you have Buddy sitting behind an all pull guitar and not getting "That Sound" you know it is not attainable.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 7 Aug 2002 5:28 pm

Emmons guitars are identified with "that sound" and most of us know what it sounds like. But think of all the other sounds people get from steel guitars, especially without pedals. They sound a good bit different than an Emmons, no, and with a tone every bit as yummy, just different.

It's kind of like saying Cindy Crawford is the beautiful woman and hers is the face by which all others are judged. Not to take anything away from Cindy but there are plenty of gorgeous women in the world (a single guy talkin' here) and Cindy C. takes nothing away from them by comparison.

A shallow analogy, perhaps but I think the point is clear. Recall all the wonderful tones you've heard on steel guitars other than Emmonses. That would be a long list, eh?It DOES NOT mean the Emmons sound ain't fantastic but there are other entrees on the menu.

I used to think the Les Paul sound was the electric guitar sound by which all others were judged--thought that for years. Then I began to hear great music played on Fender Strats and Teles and changed my mind. Now I hear wonderful stuff played on all sorts of guitars.

I think the whole rig is very important in getting great sound. Lots of combinations work well and sound great. Every ear is different and we all actually hear sound differently.
Emmons guitars sound wonderful, agreed but it's a unique sound unto itself and I've heard lots of other instruments with a tone as thrilling to my ear, and very different than the E guitar's tone.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 7 Aug 2002 5:42 pm

PS:

It's OK to say that on model is so good that others are imitations of that one. It's certainly true of Martin dreadnaught guitars, Fender Teles and the list goes on. It's true of Emmons guitars, yes. I have a ZumSteel and every time I look at an Emmons guitar I see whose the daddy of my guitar so to speak. It can't be denied, when something's great it gets imitated.

My original point is its sound is not the only wonderful sound. It happens that there are quit a few ex-Emmons guitar players. This doesn't mean they fell out of love with their Emmonses but found a very similar sound on something else that had some other great qualities to offer.
So both side are right--

--JR

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 6:33 pm

Good points John, and I agree. On the other hand, "When comparing steel sounds the most repeated statement is, 'It sounds fine but it doesn't sound as good as an old Emmons push pull'". Is that really that commonly heard? Who's saying it, and who's playing it when it's being said? I still don't beleive that a great player sounds less great on any good steel, nor that a guy with mediocre skills and tone on his non-Emmons steel is suddenly going to sound like a million bucks just by getting an Emmons. How can anyone seriously believe that? I believe when Paul said "Emmons is the standard by which all others are judged, there's Emmons and then there's the rest", that this expression most often means the item is the utmost, ultimate, pinnacle, peak, the BEST. The one the rest must attempt to measure up to. How else can it be taken? That's why I objected to it. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even matter too much to me if someone can prove that Emmons IS the best. I would still say "who cares?" All the great players still play and sound great no matter what they play and I still hear plenty of other guys in clubs and shows with all models and years of Emmonses and top-notch amps who sound like crap. That is why I say the PLAYER is what matters MOST, not the equipment. I sure never expected to get so much disagreement with this, but life's full of surprises, isn't it?

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 7 Aug 2002 6:40 pm

Well this thread has gotten deep from a "shallow" statement-Now that Bobbe agrees with me-I wish I knew which steel guitar company keeps three of a certain brand of guitar for sound comparison to the ones they build

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 7 Aug 2002 6:58 pm

Kind of reminds me of the guy who after many tries and a lot of money bought Roy Wiggins steel and amp.He promptly calls back and said this couldn't be the same guitar Roy played because when I play it it don't sound like the records.
I have been pickin for well over fifty years.I always thought if I could ever afford the best equip[ment I would finally find the sound I was looking for.Well guess what...I have a Legrande 111,a Brand new Evans SE 200 amp,a Lashley Legrand 600 amp,a Nashville 400 ,Your right .It wasn't the equipment that was the problem.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 7 Aug 2002 7:46 pm

Willis, thanks for your post. I've been there too.

When I was growing up, Chet Atkins was my idol for regular guitar, Jerry Byrd for non-pedal steel and Buddy Emmons for pedal steel. I'd stare at the Chet Atkins Gretches on the album covers for hours and grew to hate my cheap guitar, knew if I had a Chet Atkins Gretsch then I'd get that gorgeous tone. I finally got a brand-new Country Gentleman and you guessed it, I still didn't sound at all like Chet Atkins. I did sound much better but not like C.A. Got an old 6120 model later, the first C.A. model, and still didn't sound like him.

The lesson I learned from that is just what I've been saying, good equipment is important but the player is the real key.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 7 Aug 2002 10:19 pm

I still didn't sound at all like Chet Atkins.

A '53 Standel amp would have helped.

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 8 Aug 2002 2:02 am

Or an EchoSonic!

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 8 Aug 2002 2:39 am

-Or having Ol' Chester's hands wouldn't hurt either

Seriously-I have sat behind the electric table now and again over the last maybe 29 years and I KNOW that THE TONE is not all in just a player's guitar or amp or bar or strings for that matter

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 8 Aug 2002 4:13 am

-tone-its really in the picks-Dunlop .020 "THE STANDARD-----JUST JOKING

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 8 Aug 2002 5:07 am

I was tuning up my old Emmons the other day, and then I realized a great truth... there's the 7/64 Allen wrench, and then there's EVERYTHING ELSE!

problem is that in addition to the 7/64 wrench, we NEED everything else!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 08 August 2002 at 06:08 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 8 Aug 2002 6:29 am

I AGREE 100%!!! But wait, are you saying 7/64 is better than 3/16??? Just kidding!

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 08 August 2002 at 07:36 AM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 8 Aug 2002 2:44 pm

Herbster Appears

I didnt exactly know what you would say on this thread Herb-and you have surprised me by bringing up the only painful thing about the old P/P-The darn allen wrench-How many times have you had to "poke around in the dark" trying to get the thing through the hole and then line it up with the allen head inside and then the wrench falls out and down on the dimly lit stage where you have to fumble for it and meanwhile the band is ready for you to kick off the next tune

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 8 Aug 2002 5:39 pm

I love these threads!

I have an Emmons P-P.
It's cool!

It's plain to see at steel shows which brands are take offs on the Emmons Mica Body/Aluminum Neck/Single Coil P/U thing.

There are also several brands that don't follow in suit...
GFI, Fulawka, Sierra, and probably a few others.

Looking at the Sierra lineage for example... Olympic, Royalty, Stafford Elegance S14U, Crown, Artist, Session Series, it seems that they proceeded as if Emmons never even existed, let alone "Bench Mark".

From the Ask Buddy Site:

Re: Sierra Guitars
From: Buddy
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 08:18:02

Comments
The Sierra guitar has a soft but deep acoustic resonance that few other guitars have, so it's my favorite for the C6 tuning.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Aug 2002 6:58 am

Well Pablo, I refrained from commenting at first because I wanted to see how the thread was gonna go. Yes, the Allen wrench thing is one of the design flaws of the Emmons Original, similar to, but not as problematic as, the wing nuts on the pedal rack of the old Sho~Buds where the screw fits through the holes in the front legs.

Whenever you remove a wing nut, there's an opportunity to drop it. And statistics show that 43% of the time, the wing nut will fall through the only crack in the stage, which is invariably where the steel guitarist sits. So your lost 29-cent wing nut renders your beautiful rosewood/maple inlaid fancy-schmancy Sho-Bud totally useless.

I generally refrain from making statements like "Brand X is the Best, and then there's the Rest" because although they roll off the tongue real easy-like, they're WAY too jingoistic and you're basically preaching to the choir while offending everyone else who happens to have a different opinion or guitar. These kind of pronouncements usually say much more about the guy saying them than they do about the instruments themselves. I know statements like this often come out of joy and pride in one's own possessions, but the message delivered can be skewed by the tone of the statement. Often what's said can come off like chest-thumping, like "I'm smart and you're not."

I recall one thread here a long time ago when a dear friend of mine, so enthused about getting a Sho-Bud and playing it through a Twin Reverb, stated that mica-covered guitars were "kitchen countertops" and "not real steel guitars," and that tube amplifiers were the only amps worth listening to. I told him I appreciated his enthusiasm for his new-to-him equipment and sound, but that he just told Buddy Emmons that he wasn't playing a real steel guitar and that his sound wasn't worth listening to.

Then there are the volunteered opinions coming strictly from left field that aren't even solicited, in response to but not even related to the questions being asked. One forumite used to talk about how the only steel guitar worth listening to is a "brand X with Bill Lawrence pickups," and that anyone who had anything else would sound like crap until they replaced what they were playing with the above-mentioned guitar. Well, okay... except that probably wasn't the answer that the original poster was seeking when he was asking about how to adjust a knee lever on his own excellent (but not "Brand X") guitar. These kinds of statements lead me to believe that the speaker probably can't play for beans, is justly insecure about his abilities, and feels he needs to reinforce his feelings by bragging about what he owns. The more guys that say "yeah, right on..." to those statements, the more he's happy, and he's looking for any opportunity to get the reinforcement.

And there's times when statements like that are simply not appropriate, and that's when they reflect negatively not only on the choices made by other players, many with higher credentials and skills than the speaker, but also their intelligence. Such as, "anyone who doesn't play (what I play) is an idiot," or "go ahead and play what guitar you've got if you want to sound like sh!t." Don't laugh... I've seen it right here.

I tend to make statements, when asked about my equipment choices and what I play, that reflect how I feel about my equipment as it relates to me, why I play certain brands and not others, and perhaps what advantages I've found in some brands and pitfalls I've found in others, usually from personal experiences, since I've been doing this silly game for 37 years.

I do have an enviable assortment of old Emmons guitars because I love the vibe I get from them and the tone they produce. They have their drawbacks, for sure. For the last month or so, I've been playing my Fessenden and I frankly love the ease of action, it's cosmetic beauty (rosewood and maple lacquer cabinet), it's stay-in-tuneness, and its great tone. I will be playing this guitar at ISGC, incidentally.

BTW, it has George Lewis pickups and it doesn't sound like crap.

Bottom line: it's about the player, not the instrument. A skilled carpenter can create a masterpiece with a handsaw and a cheap hammer, where a well-heeled hobbyist with a collection of Makita and Snap-On tools that would make a hardware store owner drool with envy could turn some high priced lumber into a high priced pile of sawdust and firewood.

POSTSCRIPT: Getting back to the original post, I'd agree with Tut Taylor about Gibson mandolins and banjos, at least for the majority of the time they were produced. Gibson used to advertise that "the least expensive Gibson was superior to the best of any other brand," and for a great length of time, that was true. Likewise, Martin flattops set the standard in tone for that style guitar. Gibson could NOT make the same claim for arch-top guitars, though they were the first to manufacture those instruments based on violin structural principles, because there quickly came other builders, such as Stromberg, Epiphone, and D'Angelico, with equally fine competitive products. The availability of comparable substitutes provided by competitive builders, such as with mandolins, resonator guitars, and pedal steels today, makes the "best and rest" statements hard to justify, IMHO.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 August 2002 at 07:59 AM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 August 2002 at 08:26 AM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 August 2002 at 08:36 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 9 Aug 2002 7:50 am

Herb
Nice post,but you are catching up to me in "length" of posts, I refer to,,I can read your mind from here.

Get your mind out of the gutter. Grab a wrench.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Aug 2002 8:02 am

Jody-man
It was long, wasn't it?

It's in your style, but,,, I don't use ",,," quite as much as you do,,, I think!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 9 Aug 2002 8:44 am

HERB RULES!

I don't know how it could possibly be better said than that. Right about the Sho-Bud wing-nuts too. Had some Sho-Buds I really liked (and some I didn't) but hate the wing-nuts.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 August 2002 at 10:00 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 9 Aug 2002 9:26 am

I keep a stash of spare wing nuts by the strings and the mini flashlight, been there.

Brian Lethert · Post by **Brian Lethert** » 9 Aug 2002 1:51 pm

When steel players discuss a particular player's 'tone', I would be interested in knowing whether they are referring to the musician's LIVE or RECORDED sound.

I recently played on a friend's CD in a fairly low-budget analog studio. Nothing special in the way of steel parts, either.

When I heard the final master, I could barely believe that was me on the CD. (I could tell it was me because of a couple of screwups that I remembered.)

Anyway, the steel TONE (not the playing) was incredible compared to what I normally hear out of my amp.

The guy on the mixer knew how to polish some raw stuff, that's for sure.

I AM NOT suggesting that the high-end pro players just plop something down and that the brilliant engineer makes someting beautiful out of it. I'm sure they give them a fantastic part full of great tone.

But I will guarantee you that it sees a fair amount of tweaking before it hits the final mix.

Therefore, I am not convinced that the exact tone that you hear on a recording is EVER achievable without the exact same signal processing. Live tone is another matter, of course.

I had better not play this CD for my current band, or they might fire me and hire the studio engineer to just play tapes at our gigs!

BL

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 9 Aug 2002 2:46 pm

What a great thread!!! Great posters, great thinkers,obviously some great players, everyone giving great consideration of others opinions, I love it! Dennis Manuel,yep,

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 9 Aug 2002 2:47 pm

bOb is gonna' be proud of me!

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 9 Aug 2002 3:20 pm

Gotta agree w/ Herb and Jim on this one! I think having the right gear for you, is more important than having the right gear "that everything else is compared to".

No disrespect to Martin guitars, but I had a buddy loan me his nice D28 while he was out of town for about 6 months(I need more friends like that!). This guitar was sweet sounding, and played beautifully. But as far as recording, a beat up old Hohner dreadnaught sounded way better. This might have had something to do w/ the dynamics and EQ of the tunes I was recording, but if I subscribed to the theory that "Martin is the best, I have the best, so I need to record w/ the best", my mix wouldnt have sounded as good as it did w/ the Hohner(The cheap German guitar that all other cheap german guitars are compared to!).

"Variety is truly the spice of life!" If we all sounded like Buddy, then Buddys sound would be vanilla, and that would suck!

"Necessity is the mother of invention!" Saw some high school age kids in a funk band the other day, they had the crappiest instruments(Squire Strat, Casio Keyboards, crate amps), but they sounded so great!! I assure you that they didnt sit in their garage and say, "man we would sound so much better if we had a real Hammond B3 and an american made strat. " That thought didnt even cross their mind, they just practiced and got pretty tight w/ what they had.

I am guilty of this philosophy as well. I cant count the times I was sitting on the can reading my Musicians Friend catalog, thinking " man if I only had this $1500 mic preamp, my recordings would sound soooooo much better". When I should have been honoring the latter part of the proverbial "S#@t or get off the pot". Think of all the recording time I wasted by sitting there jonesing for gear I couldnt afford.

I am officially rambling now! I will leave you w/ one definative statement.

BMW touring bikes, the one that all others are judged against!!!!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 9 Aug 2002 3:40 pm

HERB-You are the BEST-and all the REST here posting thanks for your viewpoints-b0b wanna close now-I have had fun with this thread