C6th - Losing the 10th String

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Jun 2002 7:55 am

I might try putting the middle "D" on the lowest string

Jeff,
It scares me sometimes how similarly you and I think.

And, Jay, that's a GREAT idea.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 20 June 2002 at 08:58 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Jun 2002 8:15 am

The copedants I've seen for Curly Chalker show a low D and A with an E on top, like this from top to bottom: E, C, A, G, E, C, A, F, D, A. Essentially instead of a high or middle D, he used a low D.

Since Curly "managed" without the high D, maybe you could consider putting the middle D and dropping the high D instead.

All this and more is why I play 12 and 13 string guitars!

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

James Winwood · Post by **James Winwood** » 20 Jun 2002 8:33 am

Jeff, I play lead pedal steel. That is what I work on and shoot for. I need as much modal advantages as I can get with limited bar movement for speed and that certain sound. To me the D is essential. A diffrent mind and style of playing might think differently. If my comments seemed very biased, I'm sorry, I am in my own warp with this instrument.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Jun 2002 9:25 am

Another point that I've discussed with other players and has bothered me for a while now is that I don't know how a standardized jazz sensibility will come about on steel. Even though there is a variety of styles in playing jazz on 6-string, piano, and horns, there is a general dynamic in the improvisation where these instrumentalists seem to play so many off color notes, so many chromatic transitions, and so on, and at such incredibly fast speeds. Should we be striving for that type of playing style. I know that when Curly or DJ improvises, it does not sound like that kind of stuff. It sounds great, of course, but it doesn't meet some sort of standardized definition of what steel jazz is since I don't think we have a standard or definition. At least not the way a Pat Matino or Charlie Parker or Coltrane sounds like. Even though the steel has tremendous versatility, what will be the definition of it's "jazz sound". It has a defined "country sound" obviously that is quite standarized even though there is much creativity in it. What is it's "jazz sound" standard supposed to be and where will it come from?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Jun 2002 9:42 am

James, please read the ubbcode help file for instructions on how to use the TAB feature to format charts.

Bobby Black's 8-string C6th includes the B note, but he puts it up top E9th-style: <pre>D
B
E
C
A
G
E
C#</pre>That's without pedals, of course.

I agree that Doug Jernigan and Curly Chalker are masters of traditional jazz on the C6th. I'd put Herby Wallace in that category, too. I love listening to them play but, realistically, I can only do so many things in my life. I've come to the conclusion that I don't have the time and energy to devote to learning to play that style well enough to satisfy myself. Instead, I'm using the C6th to add new phrasings to the kind of music that I play today.

I'm not sure that I need the 10th string for that, and from what I'm reading, I think that losing it and gaining a middle D might be the way to go.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 22 Jun 2002 8:31 am

On the tunings I have seen for Curly Chalker's C6, he had a low A on the 10th, a D on the 9th and the rest is standard with the high E on the first. He didn't use a low C on the C6 to get some of the chords that he could only get. His use of solo work utilized the bass strings and was his trade mark. I have heard that he was mildly interested in more strings but had to settle for what he knew best. Johnny Cox can tell the details of Curly's tuning as he has one of Curly's guitars and also has a similar setup on his C6.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 22 Jun 2002 8:38 am

You can see (most of) Curly's setup in this thread: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/001199.html

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 22 Jun 2002 4:50 pm

I've come to the conclusion that I don't have the time and energy to devote to learning to play that style well enough to satisfy myself. Instead, I'm using the C6th to add new phrasings to the kind of music that I play today.

I'm just gonna add some additional food for thought onto this discussion. So let's suppose that you don't feel you'll play well enough to ever aspire to Chalker or Jernigan. Well, first of all, none of us ever will play like them. BUT, the sort of musical styles that they developed were due to large part to the natural capabilities of the standard C6 tuning. If you do aspire to ever play jazz/pop standards, even if it's just some simple chord melodies or playing from a fake book, then the normal copedent WITHOUT a middle "D" note and with a 10th string "C" will lend itself MORE READILY to allowing you to develop that style in your playing, however far you choose to take it, for the reasons I mentioned in my other posts. Secondly, if you have no interest in jazz/pop playing or Western swing, if you only want to expand your own personal style in a different tuning, why do it in C6? Just because it's there? Perhaps you've experimented with it and have decided that your personal style lends itself to that tuning, but you need a middle "D" for your style. I guess I can see that point. But keep in mind that if you should ever decide that you have developed your C6 to the point where you would like to tackle some more conventional usages of the neck, then you might wish you hadn't made the unconventional changes that you did (removed the 10th string, putting in a middle "D"), etc. Whatever you do, I'd be interested in you letting us know the sort of thinking you have developed on your tuning. .. Jeff

Susan Alcorn · Post by **Susan Alcorn** » 22 Jun 2002 9:13 pm

I've been playing with an F on my 10th string and a D for my 7th string for quite a few years, and have never regretted it. As with anything on the steel guitar, dropping one thing and adding something else is a trade off. It depends on what you want to do musically with your instrument. For richness in chords, I like the possibilities of very close voicings. If I wanted to sound like Curly Chalker and many of the Buddy Emmons recordings (all of which I admire greatly), I would not have put the D in there. As for the bass establishing the tonality, for my musical purposes it is totally unecessary. For me tonality is suggested (and only suggested) through weight, voicing, juxtaposition, and time. So, to make a short story long, it depends on what you want. Neither is better or worse than the other. Best of luck.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Jun 2002 4:55 am

If I wanted to sound like Curly Chalker and many of the Buddy Emmons recordings

And Doug Jernigan. My main point was not so much that anyone should sound like anyone. Just that the tuning is defined in two ways:
1. to reflect strong jazz theory chord constructs, and 2. to provide a very wide range of notes, especially in the bass. This definition lends the C6 to be READILY able to act in a capacity not unlike a piano for arranging the standards, and as you know, Chalker and Jernigan have heavily utilized it for that purpose. IMO, removing the 10th string "C" note and adding the middle "D" to the C6 tuning, while of course offering other advantages, significantly diminishes that capacity, and it is that capacity for playing the standards, which is one of the signature styles/genres played on C6, that was at the heart of my analysis. Of course, when major talents like Terry Crisp and Susan Alcorn are using a middle "D", it does makes a case for the viability of trying it out. So I guess the writings on the wall - I ain't gonna win this one. But then again, I lose most of my debates on the Forum. G'bye. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 23 June 2002 at 06:14 AM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 23 Jun 2002 6:40 am

Jeff you have already won pal. Meaning; your seeing the solid structure of the standard that has already been set. All the greats have been all the way around the block with trying many tunings/copedants....but they always return to the standard and if they haven't yet; than that means they just haven't made it all the way around the block yet.
Folks will venture to try new things(and that's a good thing); but they will always return to the bread and butter.
Someone ask Terry if he has the D note in there now???? I've got 5 bucks that says he don't......ah....ha.....

Anything can be learned and adapted to....and obviously several great players have.....heck I'm not a great C6th player and don't play any Jazz at all...and I had that D in there on the SS Hawaiian 10 string C tuning....and it was great fun; but like said earlier......it has it's advantages and disadvantages......it's a give and take......but knowing and hearing Jim Loessberg and Gary Carpenter real well and for many years.....play Jazz standards; Charlie Parker music; bee bop.....NOTE for NOTE bass lines and chord melody.......there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD...they could do it without the standardazation of the C6th pedal steel as we know it.
And I have heard Jeff play too; and believe me folks......I would print everything this guy says on this Forum....what a great talent and great ear and understanding of MUSIC.
Ricky

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jun 2002 7:31 am

IMO,

The keyboard instruments (piano, organ, vibes, accordian, etc), are without doubt THE most perfect instrument EVER invented for solving musical instrument's built in enigma.

That is, on ALL other instruments ever created by man, the note or notes one plays have to be created. NOT so on the piano. They are always there!

Plus, they are there in a most perfect way. With the natural attibutes of humans with their ten fingers it is the ultimate in choice and convenience.

Plust there is ONLY one of any given note. Even a saxaphone player CAN shift notes to some degree. But the piano has 88 fixed notes. (Electronic keyboards excepted).

Because of these anamolies, most of the rest of the musical sphere is made up of a never ending quest to find specific notes as close as possible to where we are in a given instance.

This has never been more true than with our beloved instrument. Just exactly how many middle C's are there on a D-10 with 8 and 4. Forget about a JC guitar with 10 and 12!!!

I have not a clue how many middle C's there are. I 'jes know they's a plentya ubm'

That D note that spawned this thread is the epitome of "danged if ya do and dagnab it, danged if'n ya don't"

love you all,

carl

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Jun 2002 7:56 am

I don't think that there is any problem here. There are 12 notes and you play the ones that you think sound good however it works the best for you. I don't understand the anxiety around something being "right" or not. When I decided to check out the D string thing it was because I couldn't find the notes I was looking for without lots of complex pedal and bar moves. I tend to like cluster type voicings in that register. If I find myself avoiding that D string at some point I'll pull it out of there.

I've got 3 crappy gigs this week hackin away at standards and pop tunes on the C neck trying to get my chops together.
I'll let you guys know if anybody gets upset with that D string

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 23 June 2002 at 10:18 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Jun 2002 8:50 am

Bob,
I don't think there's any anxiety about anyone being uncomfortable but the player. As creatures of habit, some of us have muscle memory of 25 or 30 years that includes grips in the lower register of the C6 tuning that are ingrained in our very being.

It is very hard for some people to unlearn things so firmly rooted and it's easier for others. I salute you as apparently one of the latter. I'm not. And I'm so busy with a fulltime career, plus three bands and the occasional session or show gig that I can't find time to unlearn and relearn without really confusing myself. Maybe it's just the curse of a simple mind.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 23 June 2002 at 09:52 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 23 Jun 2002 9:48 am

Larry-I have about come to the same conclusion, as you have.

I have tried and played every tuning in or out of the book. I have done this all my life.

In the early years , it was easy with my Electra-Harp . I just moved a screw on a tuning bar and adjusted for depth and I had a new pedal pull.

A6,Bb6,B6,C6,D6, and E6 are all good pop/jazz/ basic tunings. I prefer E6, because that is what I played the most on and along with guitar, bar positions were more familiar to me.

So Larry, maybe you are right. I have come all round the horn, and now believe it or not, am playing a standard E9/C6 D10 Carter.

Now I am simplifying , but I think I will put my E6 back to replace the C6, but all the pedals are the same , except for my knee levers. And I do get that D on C6 on a knee lever, lowering the E and on another knee lever I lower the G to F. I have used these pedal pulls for about 50 years.

Nice post, this is what the Forum is all about.Sharing of information.......al

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 23 Jun 2002 10:01 am

Ricky you may have won the war.But you lost the bet.

.Send The money to b0b.Not enough to do me any good.

For what it's worth.I have Paul Franklin's 5th pedal changes on my 9 pedal guitars.This of course will give you the D in the middle.Kinda lets you have the best of both worlds.For those intersted see (Tunings) at the top of the page.This change may not be suited for all guitars.Just for kicks some of you might want to tune your bottom 4 strings to D,C,A,and F.You can't use pedals 5 and 8 of course.But it will give you and idea of how easy some of the single strings licks line up.Just my thoughts.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 23 Jun 2002 11:37 am

Regarding Larry Bell's last post, maybe we both have "the curse of a simple mind", 'cause that's exactly how I feel, except I'm only playing with two bands.

I've tried the Universal E9/B6 route, both with and without the middle D (C# on B6 by lowering the E9 D string). Due to old age, old habits, lack of time, etc. I'm back to playing my "stock" D-12.

Jerry Fessenden will build his first ever D-12 for me when/if he gets caught with the latest flood of orders. When that is delivered I will have a very nice birdseye maple Extended E9/B6 Universal for sale.

Another experimentation idea for you D-10'ers or extended E9 players, lower your E's and D-C# and you can play B6 with a middle C#, albeit on D-10 you won't have the lower strings of the tuning. That is what I plan to do with my new D-12. I will then have in essence three tunings, extended E9, extended C6, and extended B6 with a middle C#.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Jun 2002 12:32 pm

Right you are, Jim. When I play a B6th position on my Extended E9th, I have a middle C#. I find that string very handy in that position.

Jeff, don't go away mad. You have not "lost an argument" - you have provided very compelling reasons for keeping the 10th string. I'm sure that most of the readers here agree with you, even if they haven't chimed in.

I took the strings off of my back neck this morning and bought me a set of custom Jagwires that includes the middle E (I'm actually tuned to D6, remember?). I think I have a properly gauged nut roller in the parts bin. So I'm going to try this for a few months and see how I like it.

I could keep that low string if I had a D-11.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 23 Jun 2002 12:58 pm

b0bby is soo correct. Just like when I took a poll a few years back it showed what some might not think is true if one was to believe by reading posts.

There is the standard tunings. And regardless of what a few do, MOST PSG's fall within this standard.

The D in the bass register has long been needed from a musical standpoint. It IS in the scale. It is WHY BE replaced the 1st string G and installed a D years ago in the treble register.

But EVEN here, most players STILL use a G. If you go to a show, and check ALL the PSG's at the show at the Distributor's booth, you will find there is a G note on top on the C neck. And you won't find a D in the bass strings.

When BE makes a change, it is often copied and sometimes it sticks. Lowering the 6th string a whole tone (E9th) is an example. It is standard today on most guitars.

And is what most of the manufacturers ship unless something else is requested. I asked them and they told me this. That is how I know. I called just about everyone of them. Emmons never answered. But those that did, confirmed it.

The D note in the bass register is NOT like the change on the 6th string. It is a different basic tuning. It places a note, (while in the scale) in a place that messes up a 40+ yr standard tuning.

Whether most players will use it in the future remains to be seen. Right now most do NOT. So Jeff, you are more correct than incorrect. And we love you man,

carl

Susan Alcorn · Post by **Susan Alcorn** » 23 Jun 2002 1:59 pm

Bobby,

You probably have more information than you need about the change in tuning, and it seems to have taken the form of a debate.
Here's what I have found useful with the D string. With western swing, I find the sixth chord to be the predominant tonality. If you are playing a four chord, your D is, of course, the sixth. If you want to play a bass-like riff on the bottom strings, you can do F,A,C,D,C etc. If you go to the next string, you have the flatted seventh Eb with your C pedal, so you can do something with that. A lot of the time when playing chords, you can put the D in there as a little extra added flavor and then change back to another chord. For instance, if I'm playing an F major seventh, with the E being the major seventh, I can go back and forth, sometimes hitting the D for a sixth. Also, with a blues scale starting on the 9th string A. You can play A,C,C#(8th pedal),D,E, and then back down again -- very nice. With single string playing . . . when I originally changed my tuning (back in the eighties), I listened to what Buddy Emmons, Curly Chalker, and many of the other major players were doing (and I loved what they did). What I noticed was that on the top strings they played very diatonic, but on the bottom strings, there was a tendency to play in an arpeggiated manner. I wanted to have the flexibility to play diatonically with more ease and more fluidity. I didn't want to have to analyze so much how I was going to get around. Country music, for better or for worse, is very "lick" oriented, and to play extended improvisations, I needed a little more on the palette.

Also, having the D in between the C and the E (and with pedals -- C# and Eb), It became much easier to make subtle changes in a chord without having to move to another fret. This, of course, makes it much easier to move back to your original chord. A simple example would be the turnaround that everyone has heard -- EAC (strings 6,4,3) to EbAC (strings 6 lowered, 43) DAC (strings 7,4,3). Of course there are a million ways to get this simple turnaround, but this puts it more under your fingers.

A good musician will find a way to get what he or she needs no matter what the tuning. Some people will adapt their instruments, some won't; some can adapt their instruments, some can't. Everyone is different which makes music interesting. The 7th string is an adaptation I could make; there are others I probably couldn't do. That's why you have Chas Smith and Pete Drake both playing the same instrument. The pedal steel guitar is not an instrument set in stone -- it is a baby of an instrument. We need to let it change and let it stay the same.

ps -- I wonder what it would have been like if the Steel Guitar Forum had been up when they first came up with the split A and B pedal.

-- Susan

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 23 Jun 2002 7:31 pm

Ok Bobby Boggs as per your request...I'm sending 5 bucks to b0b......cause I do pay my bets...."dangit"...

Anywho....this is an extreamly great topic and many are learning and thinkin' about their instrument...and that's what it's all about.
Everyones post here are enlighting and knowledgeble....and it's great to have the swapping of ideas.....I just wish I had an idea....ah....ha.....but when I do....ya'll be the first to know.
Ricky

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Jun 2002 8:00 am

There is usually a good reason why something has developed into a standard.. I do not think that people should start on the D string tuning without at least checking out the standard low C tuning first. For me I had that 5th Paul Franklin pedal on my steel like Bobby Boggs was talking about. I found that I just left it in all the time so being lazy I just changed my tuning so I wouldn't need to push any more pedals than I had to.

Here is a couple sus chords moving to the major that are easy with that D string:

Gsus- strings 7 5 3 to Gmaj- 7 5 3(L)

Dsus- 7 5 4 to D maj- 7 5(ped 5) 4

Every pedal change and tuning is a trade off. So far this one is working for me.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 June 2002 at 01:01 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 24 Jun 2002 2:55 pm

Bobby Boggs; I've sent the 5 bucks I lost to b0b as a donation on your behalf pal.
Nice bettin' with ya....but I do better betting at Golf....."do ya play"??? ..

Also.....so Archie tells me of your interest in his Zum??? Are ya going for it?? Also guess what> I believe Archie has that D note in there....can you believe that??? I actually set it up for him that way with some nice changes in there with it....but he may of gone back...can't remember.....and I'm not bettin' on that info...LOL....

Ricky

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 24 Jun 2002 5:48 pm

Nice betting with you Ricky.

I wish you had made it $500 instead of $5.Maybe then I could afford the Zum.Not a good time for me to buy anything.

Good looking axe fer sure.I'll bet the Franklin (5th) pedal change,talking bout the D in the middle now)For all you folks following along at home.

would work just fine on that baby.Oh this being poor is not a good thing.

---bb

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Jun 2002 9:39 am

I've done it. Still tweaking the pedals a bit, but so far I like it. There are pentatonic blues scales all over the place.

I'm thinking of having P5 lower the low F to D instead of raising it to F#. That would give me a piece of the lost 10th string. In fact, P5 was the only position where I ever consciously used the 10th string.

Thanks for the donation, Ricky. I hope the gaming commission doesn't discover this high stakes betting establishment.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)