Baffled by the finger.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 May 2002 5:43 am

I somehow picked up this problem I did not have previously.
On my Unsiversal All-Pull S12 triple raise/lower I have the Standard Newman Tuning. No problems.
But now I cannot seem to drop string 8 from E to D all the way.

It somehow drops to almost D and then it stays sharp. So I adjust the stop to give it LOTS of space. Makes no difference. When I look at the finger of string 8 it appears that the raise finger moves after the lower has almost reached D. So I disconnect ALL rods (including pedal 6) connected to string 8 except the one that drops E to D. No difference. Then I push the lower finger with a screwdriver, THAT helps. The raise does NOT move at all, no matter how far I push the lower finger. So the problem is not inside the changer. Then I push the finger with a screwdriver right next to the nylon tuner nut, the raise moves again. Now I disconnect all rods to string 8...same problem. I also disconnected the rods on string 2 to make sure they do not interfere. Same problem...

I read most posts on the forum regarding this problem. I think I tried evrything suggested,including looking for pieces of string, but to no avail.

I am baffled.

To recap: With everything disconnected on string 8 and 2, I push the lowerfinger at the same point that the lower spring is attached. I can push it all the way without the raise moving.
If I push on the same finger from the tuner nuts side, the raise moves after it reaches almost D.

Any suggestions?

(I prefer D on 8, I have taken it off 9)
Peter[This message was edited by Peter on 05 May 2002 at 06:57 AM.]

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 5 May 2002 7:29 am

What brand of guitar are we talking about?
JE:-)>

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 May 2002 7:37 am

Jim, it probably is a Remington built under licence. One of those... Good sound, solid mechanics, but it was a mess before a tidied it up. So now it was playing well until this problem. I will reassamble the rods again and see what happens.
Peter

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 May 2002 8:07 am

Two suggestions...

Use a heavier guage string for the 8th string, or put a lighter spring on the on the 8th string lowering lever. On some changer designs, too heavy a lower-return spring will affect changer action, and cause the problem you describe.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 5 May 2002 8:34 am

Peter,

Have you tried tightening the return spring on the 8th string? From your description, it sounds as if this is your problem. In fact, that is one of the symptoms when a return spring loses some of its strength over time.

Try tightening it a turn or 2. If that does not help, then it may be something else. What, I have not a clue.

God bless you in your attempts,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 05 May 2002 at 09:34 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 5 May 2002 8:43 am

I'd bet it's the return spring.Tighten it up till the problem dissapears.Some guitars like later model MSAs,do not have an adjustable return spring.On that kind of guitar,you have to cut a turn or two off the spring and re-bend the new end to hook onto the anchor point.See - I told you you would get to know the mechanics of your guitar by digging in.We all go thru this.When you get this guitar all tweaked up and running,you'll know the undercarrige like the back of your hand. -MJ-

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 5 May 2002 10:22 am

Again, Dear builders, Why don't all guitars have ADJUSTABLE lowering springs.

I can think of some very good guitars that doesn't........al

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 5 May 2002 12:31 pm

It might be a difference in which hole in the lower finger the pull-rod is. If it is in the top holes it will be closer to the point where the lower-finger rotates on the raise finger and that might pull the raise finger also. Try with the pullrod in the lowest hole. That might solve the problem.
Bengt

Also make sure you don't have a split-tuning screw that stops the E string from lowering all the way. ( Happened to me trying to tune a lower on my guitar)[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 05 May 2002 at 01:34 PM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 May 2002 3:05 pm

Thanks guys,
I have adjustable springs, that's how I solved all my other issues (PSG of course). But this spring has been adjusted a lot, almost to the end. But no go!

Hey, I just discovered that the spring is not pulling straight. It pulls the lower finger very, very slightly towards the front of the guitar, away from the player. When I put force on it in the opposite direction, towards the player, the raise does not move any more, and I can pull as low as C . Does this mean that the big rivet is shot? Or is there something stuck in between? I can't see it. I could attach a spring pulling it sideways.

Michael, I think I know the inside very well by now. The only thing I cannot do is take the changer out. I would have to remove the neck first, but the fretboard is glued on top of the screws. If I want to remove the neck, I would have to find a replacement fretboard first.
I now understand why they said: Welcome to the world of pedal steel!

Bengt, I dont have splits. And while testing, I had everything disconnected on string 8 and 2. I may have to swap the hole with pedal 6 hole(D) or the RKL (Eb) hole.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 May 2002 3:13 pm

Donny, I tried your advice and slackened the adjustable spring.
Problem gone(for the moment)! I don't know how to thank you. I dont understand this fully, all logic tells us to tighten the spring.
Do you know which changer designs work like this?
Thanks again!

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 5 May 2002 3:40 pm

Peter: It's been my experience that any all pull steel will do this if the spring is over tightened. If you think about it, when the finger returns to the stop, if the spring is still pulling very hard, it will cause the raise finger to activate, ergo, a sharp string. When adjusted properly, the system works great, but the adjustment is critical. Hope this helps BTW, I think practically all brands of all pull steels use this system. (I could be wrong):confused[This message was edited by Jim Bob Sedgwick on 05 May 2002 at 04:42 PM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 May 2002 4:00 pm

Jim, that is why I was so confused.

The raise would move after the lower was engaged and almost reached its target. The raise does not move when the lower hits the stop. So the problem went like this: The lower is supposed to go from E to D. Just before it gets to D,the raise would engage and raise the pitch, causing the pitch to "stick" just before it reached D. The pitch would not raise back to E , it would just stay on almost D, no matter how far I would pull.
When the lot gets released, the raise would go back, together with the lower; then the lower would continue to its stop while the raise has stopped travelling.
[This message was edited by Peter on 05 May 2002 at 05:04 PM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 5 May 2002 4:20 pm

The way I understand it now is this:
If I had double-jointed knees and I carry a very heavy weight, my knees would go in the wrong direction.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 May 2002 7:57 am

Peter, that's a very unique way of explaining it! I'm glad I solved your problem, anyway. (I didn't know you had adjustable springs, but that makes it even easier.) I explained how to test a guitar for this anomaly in a post some time ago. If I can find the link, I'll post it here so I don't have to "compose" it again.
------------------------------------------

Couldn't find my past posting on this, so I'll try to re-describe what's happening...

When the return-spring exerts too much force, it actually causes the scissors-pivot to move laterally. This activates the raise finger, and negates some of the lowing cpability, (usually, near the end of the pull). It may affect strings that are lowering a full tone or more that don't have a lot of tension.

To see how susceptible a lower is for this problem, turn the guitar over, and activate a pedal that lowers a string. Now, while the string is lowered, push the lowering finger towards the spring (mimicing increased spring tension) with your finger , or a screwdriver. You can actually see the raise finger start to move, which negates some of the lower! If the lowering finger is easy to push and make the raise lever move, then you're right on the borderline of having a problem. A small reduction in string guage may then cause the anomaly. If it's sufficiently hard to make the raise finger move (i.e., you must push the lowering finger with a screwdriver instead of your finger to make the raise finger move), you'll probably never have a problem. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 06 May 2002 at 03:23 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 6 May 2002 3:21 pm

Thanks Donny. That explains why the upper holes of the lower finger can cause the problem of unintentionally activating the raise finger. If the return-spring were connected above the holes in the lower-finger there would be no such problem.

Bengt

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 May 2002 5:46 pm

Right, Bengt. The scissor pivot actually moves when this happens. And you're right, changing the lowering spring attachment point might reduce/eliminate the problem. So would a common scissor-pivot axle for all the pulling fingers.

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 7 May 2002 4:39 am

Peter.....

That finger has an abnormal amount of wear on it. It moves (verticaly/horizonaly) on the pivot point along with the actually rotation movement. This is whats causeing your problem.

Replace the defective finger and your tunning problems are gone..

(Been there, Done that)

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 7 May 2002 11:56 am

Bill, I reduced the spring tension a lot. Now the lateral movement has disappeared. I think the tension was so high, that the scissors got slightly curved (almost like a bow and arrow). Because of the curve or bend, I could move it left/right. Now there is much less tension and I can only move it in the direction it is supposed to move. That is the direction of the pull-rods. No more sideways movement.

So Donny's solution solved everything. I am going to check all the other springs likewise.

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 15 May 2002 2:15 pm

A big THANK YOU to you guys, especially to Donny, for turning me on to this. Some months ago I threw out all the lower return springs on my Shobud Pro II, which is a double-raise/double-lower model where the springs are not adjustable, because they had lost most of their tension which caused the lower fingers to move when a raise was engaged, resulting in clicking noises and uneven feel. After cutting one of them too short, I decided to replace them with heavier springs hoping they would keep the fingers tighter and not wear out so soon. Only, some changes, especially the A pedal, afterwards did not feel as smooth as they used to, something "scratched", only I didn´t know what. Couldn´t have been dirt since I had just disassembled and cleaned the whole changer. It never occured to me that the tension on those springs was way too high and probably the same thing happened that Donny described, the lower finger got bent and rubbed against the raise finger.
Today, I finally got me a new spring that, of all those available here, comes closest to the original ShoBud springs; the wire may be slightly stronger but the diameter (of the loop) is slightly less, which means it has just a little more tension. A lot easier to cut, too. When cutting, I put on one more loop than the originals. The problem is solved, I can´t believe how precise the raises and how smooth the lowers feel.
For those who live in "metric" countries like myself, the wire gauge is 1 mm and the diameter 6 mm. (The original would be 6.3)
But I still think there should be a law that obliges pedal steel builders to make all lower return springs adjustable.

Regards, Joe H.