Jazz, where to start?

[Jason Rumley]

I've been listening to Buddy Emmon's jazz cds and I'm really liking them. I've never played jazz before and wouldn't know where to start for chords/scales, etc. I'm trying out Herb's C6 instruction for Western Swing and they're working out great but after that I'm not sure where to go. Thoughts?

[Dave Grafe]

Get a real book and start learning songs you like.

[Jim Cohen]

Be sure to check out www.SteelGuitarJazz.com for more inspiration.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

you can start w: da Blues Jason ( Western Swing too )
learning the basic I C, IV F, & V G chords/changes
to which you'll learn to add the II D, III E, VI A
you'll have to learn/hear the different tones that make up these chords
dom7 9 11 13, maj6 7 9, minor6 7 9 & " all them " altered chords
last but not least learning/hearing modulations/key changes
as mentioned a good fake book w: all the standards is a must
( it will help you learn to use charts )
as is a good teacher

[HowardR]

The beginner's series from the Jaimie Aebersold website may be a good place to start.....

http://www.allmusicmethods.com/jazz/Vol ... V54DS.aspx


http://www.allmusicmethods.com/jazz/Vol ... V01DS.aspx

[Franklin]

I've been listening to Buddy Emmon's jazz cds and I'm really liking them. I've never played jazz before and wouldn't know where to start for chords/scales, etc. I'm trying out Herb's C6 instruction for Western Swing and they're working out great but after that I'm not sure where to go. Thoughts?

Jason,

IMO, There is not a better journey on the planet......Jazz is improvisation and Buddy's musicianship exemplifies a masters approach.

How much theory do you understand? Before you drift into unknown territory, build an understanding of how harmony works over the tonal center........Most novice jazz players just learn the heads to tunes and than they start swinging at anything believing they are starting to speak the jazz language......In actuality without gaining harmonic knowledge they are speaking meaningless jibberish, and those that understand the music clearly hears the difference. Don't approach learning Jazz like that guy. Learn Jazz like the player who has inspired you.....Buddy and every serious improvisational musician consistently listens and continually studies to discover more of what's possible for phrasing notes over the chord progression and they utilize studied knowledge with every improvisation they make......That study will remain a lifetimes journey.

Its not a good idea to jump off the middle of a bridge when you can't swim. I've found it takes less time to learn something right than it does to unlearn something wrong.

Jerry Coker has a good simplified small paperback book......I believe its called "Jazz Improvisation" or "Improvising Jazz"...Anyway it teaches a great overview in all areas of Jazz....In the meantime get some simple to understand Louis Armstrong recordings to hear how great improvisations are phrased and absorb the music internally in its earliest form while you build up the knowledge for the task.

To start, learn a basic twelve bar blues and get comfortable with that progression. Now as you study music practice its basic construction over and over again. Then learn a 1 6 2 5 progression by learning these songs. "I've Got Rhythm", "Back Home In Indiana", or "Sweet Georgia Brown" and follow the same process. As you study you'll find out about logical re-harmonizations....Now apply what you learn to these basic structures for a more in depth approach.....Its a lifetime journey, and you'll find this reality, most that talk it can not play it....Applying what any Jazz book teaches to actual pieces of music is the key. Basically, Learning complicated musical forms without specific guidance is like trying to navigate the ocean without a compass. I'm saying start loading your compass/brain with specific direction.

Paul

[Jack Aldrich]

I agree with the laast two posts. In addition to steel, I've been playing jazz piano for 40 years. Getting started is a great idea, no matter how you do it, because there is no end to jazz; the deeper you go, there is gold further down!

[Michael Johnstone]

Paul Franklin speaks the truth. I would only add - listen.Every great jazz musician I ever knew spent as much time listening to records as he did playing his ax. The brain is a great tape recorder.You have to internalize the music till it's part of your DNA cause if you can't hear it you can't play it.

[Christopher Woitach]

It's useful to practice technique for the vocabulary of the music you're working towards, which is why jazz musicians practice ii V I licks. Once these are part of your vocabulary, you start using them more as jumping off points, and not as "insert lick A here" type lines.... I find that these were helpful to my development as a jazz guitarist, and have been proving very useful to my development as a jazz steel guitarist.

Here are a few. Play in all twelve keys, of course:

[Chris Gabriel]

Dig.

[Ron Scott]

Paul, Just want you to know that I thank you for the Jerry Coker Improvising Jazz information. I was able to buy this through Ebook and put it on my computer for a small fee. I am reading it quite a bit and this is all new stuff for me after years of playing country this is a refreshing change. I have just played part time on weekends and some traveling over the years but now I play at home and this is a great pass time to learn a different direction in my playing and on C6th too. Thanks to all of you for the input.Ron

[David Mason]

Paul F. Berliner has written a wonderful book, "Thinking in Jazz." There are a lot of written examples, but each one is tied to an interview and the interviews are with some of the top musicians in the world. They go into depth as to how and why they approached a certain situation in a certain way.

There's a famous jazz teacher in New York named Barry Harris. People like McCoy Tyner, Sonny Rollins, anybody and everybody would make time for his workshops - he doesn't give lessons or write books, it's all in the form of group workshops. It's safe to say that because of who Berliner interviewed and the structure of the book, it's as close as you can get to Harris's lessons without moving to New York. One thing he emphasizes over and over is storytelling - there should be a reason for playing that one, next, note.

"The Jazz Theory Book" by Mark Levine is pretty much the industry standard reference text, and it is great - as a dictionary. Another book I heard about here that surprised me (pleasantly) is "The Music of Miles Davis" by Lex Giel. It's actually sort of an outline of jazz theory, hung on the framework of Miles' music - I sometime get the impression the author was thinking harder than Miles.

One of Harris's recently-blooming students is the Israeli guitarist Oz Noy, who had this to say:

I always tell this to my students and there’s no way around it. In order to play anything that will sound like jazz and sound right, you have to study the language of jazz, which is bebop. The deeper you get into bebop, the more you can add to your playing. If you get deep into blues and then as deep as you can into bebop, I think you’re in the best shape you can be. Those are the roots to all modern music in my opinion.

What I play comes from bebop. I studied bebop pretty deeply for many years. I don’t know if everybody can do that, but it comes from there. Whatever you can grab from there, whether it’s studying some Charlie Parker or Wes Montgomery tunes. Grant Green is great because he’s got a lot of blues and jazz in his playing.
If you don’t want to get too deep into it, which is kind of impossible, you have to try to find the jazz guys who play very clear. Somebody like Grant Green, Sonny Rollins, or Sonny Stitt – there’s a bazillion people like that. Then try to learn some of their stuff, but then you have to understand what they’re playing. You have to know the theory behind it.

Of course the time-honored, single-most-used technique, the one that has gotten the most number of people from "zilch" to "jazz", is transcribing the solos and tunes of the people who move you. If somebody can ring your bell with nothing more than a sequence of sounds, well - there it is, right in front of you.

[robert kramer]

I'm just repeating what David Mason just said: that is to transcribe the solos of the musicians you really dig. Here is Emmons' guide to playing out of positions or "pockets" on the C-6th fretboard:

http://www.buddyemmons.com/Pockets.htm

http://www.buddyemmons.com/MinorPockets.htm

If you listen to Emmons' recordings - you will start to hear phrases he uses again and again. Try to match these phrases to the written examples. A lot of these "pockets" can be heard on Buddy Emmons: "Live in St Louis" and Buddy Emmons: "One for the Road." It helps to have a machine that slows down CD's to half speed. A lot of work - but a lot of fun. The DVD: Buddy Emmons & Hal Rugg "Live at the Bell Cove" is excellent.

Also - check out some of Emmons' influences: Barney Kessel, Jimmy Smith, Flip Phillips, Charlie Parker, Ray Charles' piano playing, Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery and the Miles Davis LP: "Kind of Blue" - just to name a few.

[Russ Wever]

In order to play anything that will
sound like jazz and sound right, you
have to study the language of jazz,
which is bebop.

In that case, how in the world
did Ragtime, Swing or Gypsy
styles ever come to be?
All those jazz styles
occurred before BeBop.
~Russ

[Herb Steiner]

In order to play anything that will
sound like jazz and sound right, you
have to study the language of jazz,
which is bebop.

In that case, how in the world
did Ragtime, Swing or Gypsy
styles ever come to be?
All those jazz styles
occurred before BeBop.
~Russ

Amen, Russ.

IMHO, there are only a handful of steel players, well known to most of us, that I've heard that could attempt to play bop successfully with a group comprised of actual bop and post-bop musicians. Most "jazz" in the steel guitar world is on the level of Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, Harry James, Louis Armstrong, etc.... namely, early and late period swing.

Which is fine. I love that stuff, it's what I do!

Even Buddy said that if a steel player got onstage with even a basic bop group in NYC, they'd leave you "whistling at the train station in about 16 bars." FWIW, these guys practice changes over "Green Dolphin Street" at 220bpm. Saxophonists play with all fingers and only have to worry about one note at a time. We play with three fingers on one hand and one (the bar) on the other. Ergonomically, the steel is at a disadvantage from the git-go.

The entry to studying jazz is well spoken by Paul, especially his suggestions of "Rhythm," "Indiana,"SGBrown," and the Jerry Coker books. I can only add, or maybe slightly elucidate, by saying that certain progressions should be focused upon; the 2m-5-1, the 1-6-2m-5-1, and the 3m-6-2m-5-1. And then the common substitutes for some (example: the bII dom. for the V7, or the Vm-I7).

These changes will get you into the ballpark, then you're gonna have to learn how to play the game.

[Christopher Woitach]

Um, Green Dolphin street at 220 isn't very hard, if you can play jazz.

[Herb Steiner]

You got that right.

[Jason Rumley]

Thank you all for the direction. It's great to have a resource like this forum. Some of the info I knew(like Buddy's pockets) but most of it was new information for me. I have a lot to learn!

(And Herb, I got your C6 Texas Style Vol. 1 last week and I'm burning through it, it's great material and thanks for producing it!)

[David Mason]

Even Buddy said that if a steel player got onstage with even a basic bop group in NYC, they'd leave you "whistling at the train station in about 16 bars."

Pre-Easley, or post-Easley?

[Jim Cohen]

Easley does it.

[Stuart Legg]

I’m sure I’m gonna catch 9 kinds of hell over this but here goes.
Fake it till you can make it.
Start out with simple arpeggios flowing along with the chord progression (doodling around in till you feel it ) Maj7 arpeg= 1 3 5 7 min7 arpeg= 1 b3 5 b7 Dom7 arpeg= 1 3 5 b7.
Of course after you study a little theory with a lot of emphasis on chord substitution.
Well here is an example of a standard old 2m 5(7) 1 chord progression with chord substitutions and simple arpeggios.
I did it here in strait 4s with the idea you could play it like that or jazz it up, double it up or shred it.

[Olli Haavisto]

Dave was a full time member of Brian Blade`s Fellowship.
2 albums on Blue Note. The first and only steel player in a well known, bona fide modern jazz group, that I know of.
He`d be right at home in NYC, for sure.

[Rick Winfield]

Listen to Buzz Evans
It's incredible what he can do with a simple melody, like "Take me out to the ball game"
What a talent !!
Rick

[Rick Winfield]

I have found the Frank Gambale book very useful. Although written for guitar, ALL the theory is there and applicable for any instrument.
"Frank Gambale Technique Book" 1 & 2
Rick

[Jack Aldrich]

In order to play anything that will
sound like jazz and sound right, you
have to study the language of jazz,
which is bebop.

In that case, how in the world
did Ragtime, Swing or Gypsy
styles ever come to be?
All those jazz styles
occurred before BeBop.
~Russ

Also, as a jazz pianist, I base my improvisations on "modal jazz", started in the mid fifties by Ahmad Jamal and picked up by Miles, Bill Evans and others. Modal jazz is well described in John Mehegan's "Jazz Improvisation" V4, and by Mark Levine in his jazz improv book. Basically, every chord has associated with it a modal scale, based on the 7 "church modes". I use bebop stuff, too, for color and for fun. Bop is an older style, from the early 40's. Then there's the swing styles from the 30's, etc., etc.! btw, "Kind of Blue" is my favorite album - I've learned things from it since I bought my first copy in 1960. - Jack