Playing vertically versus horizontally

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 4 Mar 2002 9:27 am

For years I've been a position player, going to the open fret, the AB pedal fret the AF pedal/lever fret and the D lever fret to find my licks, but not really the melodies.

After a recent Top Gun session with Jeff Newman I've really begun to use both the major harmonized scale and the Dominant 7th harmonized scale up and down the neck.

a C Major would be on strings 4 and 5 or 5 and 8 and would be as follows
<pre>
1D 1 3 6D (or 4F) 8D (or 6F) 8 10 11F
1 1A 3A 6 (or 4) 8 (or 6) 8A 10A 11A
</pre>

a C dominant 7th is truly and F major scale starting at C
<pre>
6 8 8 11D 13D 13 15 6D
6A 8 8A 11 13 13A 15A 6
</pre>

In both scales anwhere a D lever occurs you can use the F lever two frets below it.

If anyone else is stuck in the chord position rut, try this out, it will really catch your band's attention.

Sorry for the typo that P Gleespen caught the last note in the first scle requires the A pedal to pull the Bb to C. I've corrected it. [This message was edited by Robert Todd on 07 March 2002 at 03:17 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 4 Mar 2002 10:55 am

FWIW, this has made all the difference to my E9 playing, and yes, I have Jeff to thank for it, too.

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Ralph Willsey · Post by **Ralph Willsey** » 6 Mar 2002 9:48 am

I must be REALLY in a rut. I've tried these scales in different ways and they haven't made any difference for me. Could someone tell me what I'm supposed to be doing with them to make such a big change in my playing?
Thanks, RW

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 7 Mar 2002 7:33 am

Ralph:
For starters, pick two strings. I suggest strings 5 & 8. Then, using your A pedal (B to C#) and your F and D levers (E to F, and E to D#), just start playing simple melodies. You'll have to go up and down the neck, as Robert indicated, to make this work, but it's beautiful when done expressively. (Btw, I used this exact technique on the title cut of my CD, "Finally Here".) I'd suggest a very simple tune like "Shenandoah" for starters. Good luck!
Jimbeaux

------------------
The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Ralph Willsey · Post by **Ralph Willsey** » 7 Mar 2002 10:07 am

Thanks Jim,
I'll give it a try. So the idea is not necessarily to mix these two scales, but to use either one as the occasion demands, is that right?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Mar 2002 10:37 am

The point that Ralph T. was making is that there are two scales involved, a major and dominant 7th (also called mxylodian). In the key of C, on a C chord, you would use chord runs built out of the C scale notes. When you go to a C7 chord, you would use chord runs built out of a C dominant 7th scale(which has the same notes as an F scale). But the only difference between the two scales is that, whereas the C scale has a B note in it, the dominant 7th scale (same notes as F scale) has, instead, a Bb. All other notes are the sdame. So when you build your chord run on the C7th chord, you try to work in the Bb note, instead of the B, and it will sound good resolving into the F chord that is most likely the next chord in the progression.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 7 Mar 2002 10:38 am

If it's not too much effort would you please post the actual note names for these harmonized scales? Thanks.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 7 Mar 2002 11:53 am

Andy,

these are the notes that Robert has laid out in his examples:
First example (c major scale)
<pre>
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B Bb
</pre>

at first I was a little confused by that last harmony (the Bb and the E), but I think he's implying that the chord progression is switching from C to C7 there. Either that or it's a typo!

This is what he's got for the second example, to be played over a C7,
<pre>
Bb C C D E F G A
G G A Bb C D E F
</pre>

That appears to land nicely on an Fmaj Chord, giving us that V to I resolution that we all love so dearly! -Patrick

...whoops, I just realized that I may be answering your question incorrectly. If I misread your post and what you're asking is for a C mixolydian harmonized scale spelled out, than this is the answer:
<pre>
E F G A Bb C D E
C D E F G A Bb C
</pre>[This message was edited by P Gleespen on 07 March 2002 at 12:16 PM.]

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 7 Mar 2002 1:00 pm

Thanks very much! Now I can see how they lay out on any tuning.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Mar 2002 2:13 pm

C mixolydian

I never, ever spell it right. Maybe I will next time, but I doubt it!

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 7 Mar 2002 2:25 pm

Hey Jeff don't go getting all modal on us

Really what Jeff is talking about is what Jazz horn players refer to as modal scales. what they really mean is somo other major scale starting at somewhere other than the tonic.

C Dorian is a Bb major scale great for rock
C Phrygian is really an A major scale
C lydian is a G major scale
C mixolydian is an F
C aeolian is really a E major and great for minor chords in C

Here's a pretty good link http://www.guitarnoise.com/columns/2000/20000221.html

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 7 Mar 2002 3:17 pm

I have a question for Jeff Lampert. Do you a favorite position on the C6 neck for a bop scale?
Dave

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 8 Mar 2002 4:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I never, ever spell it right. Maybe I will next time, but I doubt it!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't matter, just as long as you play it right!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Sorry for the typo...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The typos work in mysterious ways. That actually worked out to be a pretty nifty transition into the C7 chord, I thought! Of course, it's much more "by the book" with the typo corrected!

[This message was edited by P Gleespen on 08 March 2002 at 04:14 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 8 Mar 2002 9:13 am

Dave,
I assume you mean Bebop. I have 4 examples of Bebop and Dominant Bebop in the key of C, the way I play them.

<pre>1____C Bebop_decending____________________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3____12__11_______________________________________________________________________
4____________12___11______________________________________________________________
5_______________________12__10____________________________________________________
6_______________________________12__10____________________________________________
7_______________________________________12________________________________________
8_________________________________________________________________________________
9_________________________________________________________________________________
10___C___B___A___G#___G___F____E___D__C___________________________________________</pre>

<pre>
1____C_Bebop_ascending____________________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3_________________________________________________________________________________
4_________________________________________________________________________________
5____________________________4__5_________________________________________________
6________________1__3__4__5_______________________________________________________
7_______1(8__3(8__________________________________________________________________
8____3____________________________________________________________________________
9_________________________________________________________________________________
10___C___D__E___F__G__G#_A_B_C____________________________________________________</pre>

<pre>
1____C_dom_7th_Bebop_decending____________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3____12__11_______________________________________________________________________
4____________12R__11R_____________________________________________________________
5_______________________12__10____________________________________________________
6_______________________________12__10____________________________________________
7_______________________________________12________________________________________
8_________________________________________________________________________________
9_________________________________________________________________________________
10___C___B___Bb___A____G__F____E__D___C___________________________________________</pre>

<pre>
1___C_dom_7th_Bebop_ascending_____________________________________________________
2_________________________________________________________________________________
3_________________________________________________________________________________
4____________________________2__3_________________________________________________
5______________________2__3_______________________________________________________
6________________1__3_____________________________________________________________
7_______1(8__3(8__________________________________________________________________
8____3____________________________________________________________________________
9_________________________________________________________________________________
10___C__D___E___F__G__A_Bb_B__C___________________________________________________</pre>

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 8 Mar 2002 9:42 am

I once saw Rusty Young playing the steel vertically,with some camping-furniture... the title of the thread brought back that nice memory....

JJ

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 8 Mar 2002 6:48 pm

Thanks, Jeff.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 8 Mar 2002 11:58 pm

I'm intrigued by and interesed in performing some STEEL GUITAR RAPP! Might these same scales apply to this? And, which tuning would you start in? I want to do it right!

Birney Bull · Post by **Birney Bull** » 26 Apr 2002 11:55 am

I have a question going back to the original subject here.

That scale that Robert posted kind of messes my head up. I've been working a lot lately on learning scales, but what I'm doing uses only the "standard" chords, e.g., at the Open, A&B, A&F positions, and the minors in their vicinities.

But the scale Robert posted uses pieces of >Minor< positions for Major chord fragments, such as 1D (A Minor) for two notes of a C Major chord. Is this a common practice? With "in chord" notes scattered all over the fretboard, this could get really crazy. It seems like it would be very disorienting.

Does anyone else use this technique, and if so, what are the "standard" scales that go outside the "standard" positions?

(Of course, in Robert's scale, I see that the Minors are the relative Minors of the Majors in question. Does that make up most of the answer to my question?)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Apr 2002 8:53 am

Birney,

The information you seem to need might be beyond the capabilities of a chat group. Get some basic theory lessons from a jazz or pop piano teacher or maybe a guitar player.You need to understand the function of chords and scales. Its really not very hard but its good to start at the beginining. I'm sure somebody here knows of a good musical theory primer book if you are allergic to people helping you in person.

After you learn that stuff ,which a good teacher should be able to explain in a day or so, the thing I use is Joe Wright's Excel spreadsheet for scales.
www.pedalsteel.com
click on "products" and then at the bottom of the scales books section is the Excel thingy.

Joe's stuff has helped me more than anything in terms of visualizing scales and melodies on the neck. When a piano player wants to play in the key of C major he can just look down at the piano and pretty much be safe if he only plays the white keys. As a matter of fact the basic triad chords in the key of C ( C,F and G) are made up of nothing but the white keys on the piano. Joe's method is fantastic for transfering that infomation to a pedalsteel in a clear and comprehensive way.

If you skip the first part about learning the basic music stuff its like getting caught up in semantic arguments about the French language without knowing what the words mean.

Bob

Ray,
Most R&B and Rap artists I have run into seem to like the traditional E9 sound for the most part.

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 27 April 2002 at 09:58 AM.]

Birney Bull · Post by **Birney Bull** » 27 Apr 2002 10:32 am

Bob,

It's exactly

visualizing scales and melodies on the [E9th] neck

that I'm trying to get a handle on. It's not like I have a degree in music theory, but I'm reasonably familiar with major and minor chords and scales.

The thing that gets me about PSG is that there are so many ways to play a given scale or chord. And of course, since each has a distinct voicing and timbre, it's valuable to learn them ALL; but that means learning more >patterns< than on piano or guitar, for example. Because as you say, on piano, you just look at the white keys, or you follow some other, logical pattern. But on PSG, the same beginning pitch can be found in several places, and ditto the following pitches, and on and on. And it seems like every time I sit down and practice, and work on committing the C scale to muscle memory (so I can transpose that pattern elsewhere for other scales), here comes a totally different way to play a C scale with a totally different pattern! Carrumba!

For example, you can play a major scale beginning with any combination of the "safe" strings at the open position, followed by any combo of the "safe" strings two frets below that with the D lever (E's lowered), followed by ... and so on. OK fine, I've worked with that one, not to mention variations on it, as well as about three other totally different patterns and *their* variations, then here comes Robert's scale going outside these positions and actually playing major chord fragments from minor chord positions! If this is how it's done, then shouldn't I also learn scales that use the minor triads from major chord positions? Maybe so, because didn't Robert even describe his scale as a way of breaking out of "position" playing and thinking more in terms of scales? Well, heck, learning my scales is exactly what I'm trying to do from the start (I've been playing PSG "only" about a year). So you might say I'm having trouble finishing getting started!

So I guess what I'm kind of asking is whether there is a reasonably finite number of patterns for scales and chords, or are there so many ways of skinning this cat that it's best just to find a manageable few that work for me for a while until I'm ready to learn and use more? See what I mean?

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 27 Apr 2002 11:07 am

Birney I'm no expert on theory by any means but here are some considerations that may explain or justify these scales. First, the minors have their root in the major,,,that is, it does not require "additional" notes to make it a minor chord as it would a 6th or a 13th etc. The minor is just an "alteration" of the original 3 notes of the major, i.e. lower the 3rd of the major and you have a minor. In the example scale the 2,3,6 are minor but are just 2 notes of the minor chord and may or may not be the 2 that make it sound minor (enter the bass man). Its just something that you're mentally aware of as you're running these scales and still the same tones you'd be running across the neck, but by going up and down the neck you can take advantage of the uniqueness of the steel guitar. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Apr 2002 11:56 am

Birney,

There is no finite system or correct final answer so don't worry about it. Pick something to learn, learn it, and then learn something else. From what I have gathered from your posts you have a fragmented batch of information about music at your command but you don't understand its practical application.

I know some stuff about theory but its not that big a deal.

Turn off your computer and practice !

Bob

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 28 Apr 2002 5:34 am

Birney,
I think I can explain the theory behind why Robert appears to be playing "fragments" at positions that are minor or something not related to a C chord. This goes beyond basic major/minor scale theory, but is actually not that complicated, and will greatly increase you range of playing options. The way it works in a C major scale C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C each note has a chord that fits it perfectly. That chord is made from notes from the C scale. The chords would be C major (C,E,G), Dm (D,F,A), Em (E,B,G), F (F,A,C), G (G,B,D), Am (A,C,E), B dim (B,D,F). Notice that each chord is made up of notes from the C scale. That means that when a song in the key of C is on a C chord, you can play ANY of those chords (or fragments) and sound fine. It also means that if the chord of the song is a Dm, you can play ANY of those chords (or fragments). Same if the chord in the song is Em, or F, or G, etc. etc. As long as the chord of the song is one of the above chords from the scale, then you can play ANY chord (or fragement) from the scale. Basically, that's what Robert did in his post. He played Am, Dm, F, G fragments in his run, but they all sound good against a C chord or any chord in a C scale. This is an extremely powerful tool, and used all the time by players who know it sounds good, even if they don't know why. Of course, when the chord is not in the C scale, you have to change what you are doing, by using a different scale. So it the chord in the song that's in the key of C goes to a B7, or an Fm, neither of which is in the C scale, then you can't use the scale C scale chords and fragments to play over it. You have to use different ones. Anyway, that's the idea. If you have any other questions, feel free to post or e-mail me.

Birney Bull · Post by **Birney Bull** » 28 Apr 2002 8:08 am

Bob,

I >think< you understood my questions; or, at least when you said

There is no finite system ... Turn off your computer and practice !

you were confirming that I was right in asking:

are there so many ways of skinning this cat that it's best just to find a manageable few that work for me for a while until I'm ready to learn and use more?

As an aside, Bob, I happen to know from our mutual acquaintance John Neff that you practice more than I could ever hope to! Also -- in one of those existential ironies that will perpetually vex humanity -- had I not turned on the computer, I couldn't get your advice to turn it off! I'm only trying to be sure I'm practicing the right things.

Jeff,

Your post solidified my understanding of keys, "allowable" chords and notes within them, and so on, so thank you for taking the time to explain that.

But actually, I was asking about the practical application of those "rules" to the PSG fretboard. Because if you look again, you'll see that Robert's "run" is really a C major scale, just as Mr. Gleespen translated it. It's not just a bunch of notes or chords residing in the C Major key beginning with Am, as you listed it. It begins with C & E, the major triad of C's relative minor chord, Am, then the minor triad of the Dm chord, and so on sequentially through the notes/chords residing in the C Major scale, just as you describe it in theory.

My question was about patterns on the PSG fretboard, not about patterns of major and minor scales and chords in abstract theory. It was about the physical patterns on the PSG fretboard that correspond to those abstract patterns. And Robert's scale disturbed me because, except for the final 11AF, it uses minor chord locations on the PSG fretboard to play notes/chords that are major in the C scale. See what I mean?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 28 Apr 2002 10:45 am

My question was about patterns on the PSG fretboard, not about patterns of major and minor scales and chords in abstract theory

The theory was to just to point out that, even though Robert played note combos from "minor" positions, that in fact it is more correct to look at it as playing from a "C major" position since, as you clearly know, the A minor or D minor chord is in fact part of a C major scale. Therefore, you can place C major scales and patterns at each or these positions. I have no particular patterns in mind, any more than I have particular patterns in mind for the basic fret positions at 3 (pedals A,B) and 8 (no pedals) for the C scale. You asked:

But the scale Robert posted uses pieces of >Minor< positions for Major chord fragments, such as 1D (A Minor) for two notes of a C Major chord. Is this a common practice? With "in chord" notes scattered all over the fretboard, this could get really crazy.

And the answer is yes, because the whole fret board is open to playing any scale. It doesn't mean you have to go and learn loads of other stuff at each available fret, but some players do because of the range of scale patterns. It doesn't have to "get crazy". Take fret one, and work a C scale out. Or maybe just a part of the scale. Or some harmony notes. Or whatever. Or don't. But if you do, there are plenty of others that have done it too. The best players will often use the entire fretboard because you can find scale fragments just about everywhere and a lot of times it's physically easier to play something at some unusual fret then to twist your fingers at a more conventional fret. Anyway, I guess I may still not understand your question, but good luck figuring it out. .. Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 28 April 2002 at 11:51 AM.]