Starting Steel.....10 string or U-12?

Randy Stiefel · From: South Dakota, USA

Hello hello,

As this is my first post let me first say hello to everyone!! Like you I've been drawn in as well by the beauty that is the pedal steel. I've been toying with the idea of starting for a little over a year and just when I thought I had it narrowed down and understood, I started reading on the U-12 approach. Back to start! So, if you were a beginner again, knowing all you have learned, what kind of steel approach would you learn? The only reason I considered the U-12 is, while I love country music, I won't be using pedal steel in a strickly country environment. I plan on using it in anything from country to blues to rock to psychadelic. Any and all advice is welcome. Thanks

Fred Rogan · From: Birmingham, AL USA

Randy - I have only been playing about 3 years but I started on the E9 and just got my first U-12 this past January. I am having a blast with that thing and I would tell you to start on the U-12. It is all over-whelming so why not be over-whelmed with something that will keep you busy forever!!! The U-12 is a great tuning and you will love having the bass notes and learning how to boogie woogie with the boowah pedal. There are lots of variations for the U-12 copedent so research that carefully and try to get a teacher!! Good luck and enjoy!
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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I like the E9 10st tuning personally. I had a U12 when I started and dropped once I got it together a little after a few years. The E9 is a very elegant and rich tuning. To many compromises and complications with the U12 for me. For what you are talking about the E9 should be plenty. I play rock and jazz gigs on that neck all the time.
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Bob

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

12 string E9 is a strong option too. That's where I ended up after trying nearly everything. Low note is E just like a guitar; lower notes available on U-12 were not very useful or practical for me.

But if you find a good 10 string E9, that will keep you busy for a long time.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Started steelin' in about '70. If I knew then, what I know now, U-12 woulda been my choice. Switched to a Kline Uni in about '84. Playing in small bands, I felt I needed those low strings. In small bands, you have to be able to fill in on rhythm when the lead player solos. I just felt a hole in the spectrum when I didn't have the low E.

Sam Conomo · From: Queensland, Australia

jump in on the u-12,but study hard,you will never be bored in this life time,get a teacher ,or buy some of the available universal teaching material.get ya pencil and paper out and start studying.
go for it.u-12
sam.

Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

I am biased, having always played a U12, but I am sure that I too would miss that low E and G# a lot, the low B not so much. And I'd likely stumble over that 9th str. D for a while if I switched to straight E9, but to play the music you describe, Ext. E9 or E9/B6 will both do the job nicely.
So I'd be looking for a U12 with 7&5, bearing in mind that it could be easily converted to a loaded Ext. E9 should you decide to go that way later on.
Just get a solid pro grade instrument to start, and be ready to study your scales, intervals, and harmony seriously if you ever want to get anywhere near the instruments' potential.
Welcome to the forum, and enjoy the ride !

cheers, Chris
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

There's far more learning materials and teachers available for E9th/10 string. There's also a far larger choice in instruments, as some makers never tooled up for a 12 string steel. Lastly, there are far more E9th/10 players, guys you can relate directly to, learn things from, and also be able to easily try their axe (and have them try yours). I feel these are factors that really cannot be refuted.

Of course, when it comes to actual playing, I feel what comes out is more a measure of how good the player is than it is what he or she happens to be playing. Winking

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

knowing what i know now, i would start out on a 12 string and learn everything from that angle.
it jut makes sense to be able to play anything you can think of on a single neck.

however, there's just something cool about a double neck.

Eugene Cole · From: near Washington Grove, MD, USA

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

U-12, because it's all there in a lighter guitar (compared to a D-10). You can start with E9th and grow into the B6th tuning. Also, the two turnings are much more interrelated with each other as compared to E9th & C6th.

Dwight Lewis · From: Huntsville, Alabama

Get the 12 stringer, You are going to be smiling no matter which one you pick cause its a phenominal instrument. And if you just got to have the lows the 12 is it. "My opinion , of course".
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Randy Stiefel · From: South Dakota, USA

Hey, thanks for all the replies. It's great to get some different perspectives on this. It seems to be a resounding yes to the 12 string. I will say that 10 strings are much easier to come by in the used market not too mention learning material. In that spirit, what are some good resources for learning the 12? Online? books? Also, is there a standard u-12 copedent? I seem to find they all vary. I would like to get started studying on a basic standard one if possible. whatever you think is best. Post me a link so I can get going! Thanks again for the responses. It's much appreciated.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

There are three "standard" 12 string tunings; Extended E9, E9/B6 Universal, and Bb6 Universal, in descending order of popularity.
Personally, I find the Bb6 the most interesting, but I enjoy taking the road less travelled.
I'd also urge approaching a Uni as one neck with twice as many pockets as opposed to "two necks in one."
To approach a Uni as two separate parts, IMO, shortchanges the advantage of the critter
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Randy, keep in mind Earnest plays the hell out of a 12 string E9.
There are advantages to the 12.
But you'll be heading down the road less travelled.
Sure, 66 takes you past Peach Springs and the Bagdad Cafe. But all the gas stations and truck stops are on I-40
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

One of the main things I like about a D10 is that I get to modify and try stuff out on one neck without screwing up the other. Its starting to look like over the years as I slowly experiment and change things I may end up with a suitable single neck 12st tuning for myself. Something along the lines of an extended E13 maybe.
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Bob

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Another vote for a U-12.

I know very little about the B6 side of the tuning and play the E9 side 99.9% of the time. But I love having all that extra bass. The E9/B6 U-12 tuning goes all the way down to B below the low E on a guitar, and I go even further and lower it to A. I also lower my 11th string from E to C# on 2 different knee levers.

The following video of me playing in a blues rock band shows how I use the bass strings, and the low A note in particular. This song is in the key of A, and I worked mostly out of the pedals down position.

Apologies to everybody who has seen this before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I
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Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

I like your little image there, Lane.
Yes, there are a lot more D10 and S10 guitars out there on the used market. Perhaps that is why good 12 strings tend to sell very fast here lately, much more so than D10's, or so it seems to me.
Anyway, notwithstanding all the threads on the death of traditional country and lack of playing outlets for purveyors of that genre, I think that the pedal steel is not dying, it is just evolving, moving down the block, so to speak. And that future will have a larger place for single 12 string tunings (I see no one has yet mentioned Sacred Steel). Just my gut feeling, but I think that Reece Anderson got it right a long time ago.
Just some musings from an old dog who would not presume to quarrel with the heavy players posting on this thread (no, that wasn't a dig about your waistline, Mike P.).

Randy, are you coming from a guitar playing background, or from somewhere else ?

Cheers, Chris
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Randy Stiefel · From: South Dakota, USA

Randy Stiefel · From: South Dakota, USA

Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

Randy, if you click on "links" at the top of this page, you come to "pedal steel pages". From there, click "copedents" in the white bar a little way down from the top; that will get you started.

If you go to "Manufacturers" from PSP, Williams Guitar Co. has Jeff Newman's E9/B6 for 7&5 (via "Technical" and the "Copedent Charts", I believe); that is probably as close to a "standard" for E9/B6 as you'll find. (My copedent at the moment, as it happens.)
Like most things in life, compromises in copedents are pretty much a given. The variations are just the result of different folks differing musical goals; play for a while, and you will probably find a change or two that don't get used much, and think of one or more you wish you had.
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Randy,
I returned to PSG after a 30 year break. Have a Rains SD-10 on a D body and have enjoyed the heck out of it for the short time I've had it. Jerry Fessenden shipped my new U-12 on Tuesday and I feel like a kid in the candy store as I'll have the best of both worlds.
I purchased the Jeff Newman Universal introduction DVD to familiarize myself with the Universal tuning theme. After watching the video a few times I felt confident in concentrating on the U-12 style of learning.Buying the DVD was a worthwhile investment.
If you have played guitar for 15 years you have some music theory background and with a lot of practice time you'll be able to transfer that knowledge to the steel. I also purchased the E9 music theory courses that Mark Van Allen offers. That information will transferr directly to the U-12.
Even though there are no other pedal steel guitar players, that I'm aware of, on this Island I am throughly enjoying this new musical journey as there is a lot of instructional material out there and the folks on the forum take all of us new guys under their wings and make us fell very welcome to this unique brother/sisterhood.
I correspond with a couple of other new universal players that have been around music for a long time and decided to try the 12 string version of the PSG. A couple of them like me have 12 string guitars on order and are patently waiting for their new instruments. Keep in touch.

BTW I've set my 12 string up with the 7/5 Newman copendant that Jerry has added a couple of changes to. If you buy a used insrtument check with the folks on the forum to see how easy that manufacter's instruments are to swap out tunings. I know I'll change things up after I become familiar with the tuning Jerry set up and his guitars are supposed to be fairly easy to swap around pedal and knee levers.
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