Tuning Question?

[Niels Andrews]

Ok, I am a new PSG player making the transition from normal guitar, Country/Rock/Blues. I have always been a stickler for being in tune. I will not play with musicians who are not "on it" with tuning. The problem is I am constantly tuning my PSG. I think possibly it is just because of the low quality of the product or is it the nature of this beast? I have a Carter Starter, replaced strings and it is in a stable environment.

[Bud Angelotti]

Niels - Welcome to the club !
You will find a million and one variables as far as tuning your instrument. Just tuning, ET tuning, Buddy's tuning, Jeff's tuning, the variables go on and on. Plus, environmental variables, plus what kind of strings, plus cabinet drop, on & on & on ! People will give you all kinds of advice on what works for them and thats great! The bottom line will be what works for you. My advice would be to experiment, see what works for you. To my ear, the jumping off point, as far as playing with other instruments, is how are THEY tuned, and how does my tuning mesh with them. If they are using electronic keyboards then they are probably A-440 on all their notes, UNLESS they are using a tempered tuning on their electronic keyboard.
And as you are now fretless, there is always compensation between your ears and your hands/bar.
There are as many opinions as there are stars in the sky.
So, I'll volunteer the way that works for me.
Using a chromatic tuner, I tune my two Ab's about 8 cents flat. I tune my two B's about 4 cents flat.
I tune everything else straight up.
Thats it for me.
Enjoy !!

[Erv Niehaus]

[Niels Andrews]

My issue is not so much the initial tuning as much as it is changing all the time. Thanks for your response though.

[Niels Andrews]

Thanks Erv, I have a Korg WT-10 also.

[Lane Gray]

While the Carter Starter is at the bottom end, the two I've played have played in tune and returned to tune.
I'll assume you got it used, here's some things to check:
1) Are all pulls reliably returning to their starting point?
2) ISTR the starter is an all-pull guitar, does each pull have a BIT of slack, pedal/lever movement before it starts pulling the string? Even a 32nd of an inch counts.
3) How new are the new strings? If rusted even a bit, they're toast
4) Try putting a drop of light oil (3 in 1, TriFlow wet, gun oil, et c.; see one of the many lubrication threads for guidance) between each finger. If unlubed, they won't pull right and won't return right.
5) If it was lubed with WD40 or similar, it'll be gummed up. Gonna have to flush that crap out.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

before tuners, tuning by harmonics was the way

start by tuning your Es ( 4&8 ) w: pedals A&B down to 440, 441 or 442
whichever you prefer
release A & B & proceed :

using harmonics on each :
on left : reference tone / on right : string to tune
you'll be using frets 5 7 & 12 mostly
you will also need a harmonic on the 4th fret - certainly not as easy as on frets 5,7 & 12
look for it, it's there

lever E lowers Es a half
lever F raises Es a half
lever G raises F#s a whole
lever D lowers Eb a half
lever V lowers Bs a half

E : string 8 fret 5 / string 4 fret 12

since your Es are tuned you get the B note on fret 7 on strings 4 & 8

B : String 4 fret 7 / string 5 fret 5
B : string 8 fret 7 / string 5 fret 12
B : string 8 fret 7 / string 10 fret 5
B : string 10 fret 5 / string 5 fret 12

F# : string 5 fret 7 / String 1 fret 12
F# : string 1 fret 12 / string 7 fret 5

G# : string 8 fret 4 ( yep 4) / string 6 fret 5
G# : string 4 ( yep 4 ) / string 3 fret 5

Eb : string 5 fret 4 / string 2 fret 5

E : string 8 w: A&B fret 5 / string 6 w: A&B fret 7

A : string 6 w: A&B fret 5 / string 3 w: A&B fret 12
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 12 / string 9 fret 7

C# : string 5 w: A&B fret 12 / string 10 w: A&B fret 5
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 4 w: B&C fret 7
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 5 w: B&C fret 5

Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 4 w lever E fret 12
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 8 w: lever E fret 5

B(G# lever): string 5 fret 5 / string 7 w: lever G fret 4
G# : string 3 fret 12 / string 1 w: lever G fret 12

F : string 5 w: A&B fret 4 / string 4 w: lever F fret 5
F : string 4 w: lever F fret 12 / string 8 w: lever F fret 5

Bb : string 7 fret 4 / string 5 w: lever V fret 5
Bb : string 5 w: lever V fret 12 / string 10 w: lever V fret 5

D : string 9 fret 5 / string 2 w: lever D fret 12

when tuning strings 1(F#) - 2(Eb)- 7(F#) note that the root/reference is B ......NOT... E
F# being the fifth & Eb being the third of B :
the fifth of B gets the same treatment/value as the fifth of E
the third of B gets the same treatment/value as the third of E
last but not least (the plot sickens lol)
when tuning F# on string 4 w: pedal C : F# is the root tone since the ref is an F# minor chord
here again it will get it's own treatment/value

Compromise is inevitable when tuning certain strings & combinations of levers &/or pedals
like F# on string 4 w: pedal C
& Eb on 4 & 2

[Clete Ritta]

I began on a Starter too, and it actually stays in tune very well despite its drawbacks. I also spent a lot of time tuning at first, and I think it is just the fact that the pedal steel is a very tricky instrument, no matter how well its made. On guitar I could just tune everything to 440 and be well. Not so on PSG, and there are many threads here about the different ways to tune, and each has their preference. Eventually you will come to your own compromise, which inevitably is what it comes down to. Theres just no way to get every combination in perfect tune. There really is no such thing as perfect tuning, perfect pitch etc. In the material world, nothing is perfect.

I personally settled on close to ET (which itself is an imperfect compromise), but sweeten the thirds (strings 3 and 6) by detuning slightly a few cents. Thats my way, and its just one in a million ways to tune these things.

Once you find your way, it gets easier and you'll enjoy tuning less and playing more.
Until then, you spend half your time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune.

Clete

[Paul Sutherland]

Niels: I don't believe it is humanly possible for any new player to immediately play a pedal steel guitar in tune. Even if you start with a perfectly tuned steel (if such a thing exists, which I doubt), all rookies simply can't control the bar well enough to play consistently in tune.

However, the fact that your hearing is good enough that you feel the need to constantly keep tuning is probably a good thing. If you can hear tuning problems, you can fix them. But the "fix" may not be what you initially expect.

I suggest you read all you can about the various tuning methods (Equal Temperament, Mean Temperament, and Just Intonation), and then just pick one, perhaps arbitrarily, maybe even a coin toss or drawing of straws. Then use that tuning method exclusively for at least six months. After six months, if you don't feel that your intonation is where it should be, try something else. Repeat until you're happy.

Second, always start your practice sessions by tuning to whatever reference you choose. (I like the sweetened settings on my Strobo-Flip, but tuning straight up--Equal Temperament, or to a pitch fork and then by ear-Just Intonation-are equally valid.)

Third, during your practice make liberal use of backing tracks that are well in tune, or drone pitches (which is primarily what I do), to give you a reference and keep you honest regarding intonation.

Finally, play it in tune!!!! If something doesn't sound in tune, don't immediately start retuning. Instead play it again, but try compensating with the bar; go above or below the fret, or slant the bar just a little to get things in tune.

When chords don't sound right, try playing single notes/strings using the same pedals and levers, and same frets. You'll quickly learn that certain pedals and levers and string combinations are simply not in tune, and you should either avoid those combinations, or pass through them quickly, don't linger on them. Major chords, particularly when you resolve to a major chord, must be as in tune as possible. But seventh, ninths, even minor chords don't have to be as precisely in tune (although it would be nice if they all were). They just aren't as offensive to the ear. The chords you resolve to should be as in tune as possible.

Last; sometimes when playing with a band, and the intonation is getting questionable, and I don't think it's me that is out, I find that playing just the root and the fifth sounds much more passable. In other words, I avoid playing the third interval of chords. I believe that's what the rock guitarist do all the time when they play power chords with heavy distortion.

All along this journey you should be working on developing a good vibrato. But don't let vibrato be a substitute for developing a keen ear for intonation, and good bar control.

Don't despair; the biggest challenge of playing the steel guitar is learning to play in tune. To me, the true dividing line between amateurs and pros is the ability to consistently play in tune.

If you can hear intonation problems, you can overcome them. If you can't hear the problems, you can never truly be a pro player, IMHO.

[b0b]

Ok, I am a new PSG player making the transition from normal guitar, Country/Rock/Blues. I have always been a stickler for being in tune.

What do you mean by "in tune"? I'm not being facetious - it's a serious question.

All fretted and keyboard instruments have tuning compromises built into their design. A few cents off here and there are deemed acceptable, and virtually all listeners consider them to be "in tune".

Fretless stringed instruments like violin, cello and steel guitar give the player absolute control of pitch. The actual tuning is rarely heard; the players hands are what must be tuned!

The best we can do for our instrument is to get the straight bar intervals in tune. Steel players tend to prefer just intonation (as do string quartets and a cappella vocal groups). I've written a web page about just intonation, which may be more than you want to know.

When you discover that you need 2 F# notes, you're on the road to enlightenment.

[Niels Andrews]

Thanks everyone.
A lot of good information and some has helped already. Never a dull moment figuring this beast out.
Cheers All!

[Tom Diemer]

I started on a Carter Starter also. Never had a problem with it staying put, tuning wise. Getting it in tune, and playing in tune was another issue.

I found I had to use the Carter Starter string sets for it which include a wound 6th string. Using a plain string there just didn't work for me.

You might check and see if you have a wound 6th, if you don't, put one on it, see if it helps. Made the difference for me. The Starter doesn't have the full step drop on that string on LKL, just a half step, so wound works fine and the guitar sounds more in tune.

[Erv Niehaus]

Another word of advise,
Do not try to tune your guitar when you first sit down at it. Wait until you've played a while and you've had a chance to warm up the strings. This is especially true in the cold country like Minnesota.
If you tune it right away, you'll wind up re-tuning it a little later on.
Also, things like air conditioning can affect the tuning. Or bringing it in from either the hot or cold, etc.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Try playing a scale in tune on one string only. It's harder than it seems ! You will notice that the bar position is not consistently over the frets as you move up and down the neck. So it turns out that training your ears to hear and your hands to respond is the real issue.

I made a CD of drones to practice ear training that might help. Or you can just use the concept and practice along to a long tone of some sort. Keep in mind that in my experience it generally takes about 3 years of focused practice on the steel to get an understanding of what "in tune" means.

http://www.bobhoffnar.net/intonation.html

[b0b]

On modern steel guitars (including the Carter Starter), you rarely have to tune the pedals. They might need a slight adjustment when you change strings, that's all. At a gig or rehearsal, just tune the strings - the pedals and levers will be fine.

[Ray Anderson]

As a Noobie of 16 months; I too had this "problem". In time I figured out the solution, and that is; check my open tuning and if that is good to go, I did what Paul said, learn to control the bar and much to my amazement, that worked and now i"m "tune free". Well almost . After many dollars on strings and strobo-flips and etc. I figured out I couldn't buy it, I wasn't born with, I just had to buckle down and learn it.

[Tracy Sheehan]

bOb you are correct up to a point about a violin player can stay on key with his fingers,but at times sounds so out of tune no matter how he notes it because if two or more of the band members are out of tune with each other the fiddle will sound out of tune. After 50 plus years playing fiddle and steel i learned at the start the band should throw those electronic tuners away and tune with the piano and we didn't have electronic tuners when i started. You had to have an ear for music.

Not to be picky,thats just the way it is. As the Korg company said years ago an electronic tuner is to quickly re tune to a tuning you decided on your on was an in tune sound. No way a person who doesn't have a good ear for music is going to be able to play on key with a fiddle. And to repeat they still will not be able to sound on key if the band is not in tune with each other. Tracy

[Tracy Sheehan]

bOb you are correct up to a point about a violin player can stay on key with his fingers,but at times sounds so out of tune no matter how he notes it because if two or more of the band members are out of tune with each other the fiddle will sound out of tune. After 50 plus years playing fiddle and steel i learned at the start the band should throw those electronic tuners away and tune with the piano and we didn't have electronic tuners when i started. You had to have an ear for music.

Not to be picky,thats just the way it is. As the Korg company said years ago an electronic tuner is to quickly re tune to a tuning you decided on your on was an in tune sound. No way a person who doesn't have a good ear for music is going to be able to play on key with a fiddle. And to repeat they still will not be able to sound on key if the band is not in tune with each other. Tracy

I got ahead of my self about tuners. As i said there was no such thing when i started in mucic.