Sound-men and steel volume

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Almost every time I play a venue that mikes the amps on stage, I am told by friends in the audience that they can only hear the steel when I’m taking a dedicated solo. I devote a lot of care to what I’m playing between solos: either important comping and complementary licks in a small combo, or those critical 1.4 seconds in the middle of the bridge (think Before he Cheats) in a new-country, large band. I find it maddening and demoralizing. I know, I know, I know: barely (if) anyone in the crowd will know the difference. That doesn’t console me.

Last night I went to see my friend Cartwright Thompson play at a great venue in Portland (ME). Band was playing traditional country and doing damn right by it. I could pick Carty out of the mix, but only because I’m a steel player and knew what to listen for.

Have others had this problem? Does someone have good advice?

Last week I caught a good, experienced sound guy at a venue I’d played before when a younger guy had been handling the board. This older guy was willing to (really) listen to what I was saying, and after the first set he told me to play higher on the volume pedal when I’m in the background, so the highs and lows wouldn’t be so far apart; in other words, keep my stage volume higher. The result was that I felt like I was too loud on stage. According to him, this worked much better the rest of the night and allowed him to keep my volume higher on the board without fear of occasional volume spikes from my amp. Some of this may reflect a lack of nuance in my volume pedal technique, but I’ve never heard that when playing straight from the stage, and I doubt that it is the main culprit, if it is an issue at all.

Any thoughts?

Dan

[Adam Sorber]

Hi Dan,
As both a steel player and a touring FOH sound mixer for many years I can say that there are alot of guys out there that have never mixed steel before- and don't know how to. When I advnace a show with a sound company I tell the FOH mixer to use a compressor on my steel with a ratio of either 2:1 or 4:1 and a threshhold of around -5db. This gives the sound guy a "buffer" that will smooth out the volume swells and
allows the steel to be heard more evenly in the mix and will limit the "Volume Spike" when you take a solo.

[Dick Sexton]

Adam, do you ever use compression when not going through the board(if you do that) and will the settings you've given work for an compression effects pedal... If so, which pedal would you suggest... Thanks...

[Bud Angelotti]

The sound guy needs to turn up the steel, very slightly, in relation to the other instruments. There is a thershold where the steel player starts to hear the sound coming out of the PA instead of his/her amp. Thats the thershold you don't want to cross IMHOP. Otherwise, you will be working against the house sound with your volume pedal. It's a fine line. I do not want to hear the steel coming out of the PA. I want to hear it coming out of my amp. It's sorta like recording. When you get recording levels right, so you can hear swells & such with the volume pedal, it's probably going to be too loud in the final mix. And of course it's hard to be objective 'cause your the steel player, and you want to hear the steel.

[Ben Lawson]

I have this sound man problem with alarming regularity. The only place that I regularly played at with a great sound crew was Church St. Station in Orlando. Since then I, and probably most steel players, have had to deal with sound men that have little, if any, experience with steels. One guy we use usually travels with Blood Sweat & Tears. He's a good guy but he has a mentality that leans towards that kind of music and not country. If I raise my volume he turns it down & visa/versa. I told every sound man we've used that the swells are part of what the steel is supposed to do.
I get told that I can't be heard from most people who comment. I don't think I've ever been told that I was playing too loud.

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

Thanks for the great replies folks. Ben, that's exactly how I feel and what I've experienced. Kinda makes me wanna disconnect the mike and turn up really loud. I'll bet my twin could keep up, and, if not, I've got a Session 500 and I'm not afraid to use it!

(Probably wouldn't endear me to my bandmates. though)



Dan

[Adam Sorber]

Adam, do you ever use compression when not going through the board(if you do that) and will the settings you've given work for an compression effects pedal... If so, which pedal would you suggest... Thanks...

Hi Dick,
I never use compression on stage. You could probably start with those settings on the Comp pedal and tweek to your own liking.
Adam

[Jerome Hawkes]

[quote= I've got a Session 500 and I'm not afraid to use it![/quote]

haha - THAT is going to be my new byline...plus, i actually have 2 if 1 wont do it

[Larry Behm]

I fought this for years, got into the sound mans face so much the band told me to knock if off or leave the band. I tried everything in the book, bigger amps, small 4" speakers in a hot spot just for me, speaker placement and angles, begging, you name it. I just gave up and played for me, took the money and went home, I could not win.

The very first night he came aboard I had him put his ear in my speaker and told him to make the FOH sound just like that. A steeler came in and told me that I sounded like my amp was under a bale of cotton. I ask the guy, he said he never mixed a steel before. "Did you listen to my my amp 45 min ago"? All I want is clean and clear. I could go on and on.

Larry Behm

[Mike Archer]

good luck on this one 30+years ive been at this

I use to get pissed at the sound guys
now I just play and forget it
the less I say the better they do.....
hehehehe
Mike

[Michael Robertson]

Years ago I provided sound and lighting reinforcement for a living.
I got tired of dealing with promoters and got out of the business.
There are a ton of variables that goes into proper engineering.
For example: the size of the venue, the size of the audience, and the limitations of the sound reinforcement equipment. Even the room itself has its own acoustic characteristics.
Ultimately it was my responsibility to MIX the stage volume so the audience would enjoy the show.
If the mix sounded good “the band was great” if I failed to provided a quality mix I took the hit.
Whenever I saw a VP (Volume Pedal) on stage I knew I was going to earn my money that day.
As for Comp/limiters I found that they degraded the intended effect of the musician.
I usually reserved Comp/limiters and noise gates for vocal mics.
I will admit there are house engineers that just don’t care or have the skills to deal with stage volume.
There is not a thing you can do about it (short of bringing your own engineer).
Some of the smoothest shows I have done are the ones where the band (usually a well seasoned and experienced band) played for their own preferred stage level. Once that is established the house engineer is on the hot seat for pleasing the crowd.
Now if the band comes out of the chute too loud I would let them know that they or one of them was already OUT of the mix. But if they would work with me, turn down a little, I would make sure they are well heard out front.
Truthfully I enjoyed doing the on stage monitor mix much more than the house. There could be a lot more satisfaction in pleasing the act and making sure they appreciated my work. Whereas the crowd would rarely understand what was going on.
Today I no longer engineer and when I play where there is a sound guy, we, the band play to our own preferred level so each can hear the other.
Call it old age or whatever but I won't be concerned with something I can’t control.
For What It’s Worth.

[Marc Friedland]

Dan –

Yes, I have some thoughts…

I believe we’ll always encounter this issue with soundmen, unless the band has the luxury of using their own sound crew who truly understand the dynamics of the band & how the band wants to sound to their audience - and very few of us have that luxury.

I have found that most soundmen are relatively OK at getting the drums, bass guitar, lead guitar and vocals-(though sometimes screechy & feeding back) at being able to be heard in a large venue. That’s because in addition to being quite familiar with those instruments, they basically set levels and walk away, figuring their work is mostly done.
Very few of them understand the dynamics and range of a pedal steel guitar and certainly have no idea what volume level the steel player intends his playing to be at as it changes drastically throughout each tune. The same goes for keyboards, which I also play as well.

I can recall on a number of occasions when I tried, to no avail, explaining to the soundmen that on both pedal steel & keyboards I had different volume levels of both instruments throughout each song and asking them how they want to address that when asking me for my level … Their usual response was something like give me your hottest volume and I’ll adjust the faders while you’re playing. It’s no surprise that they NEVER were able to even come close to doing what I consider a decent job of managing the sound of my instrumentation. (I’m making that judgment based on recordings or videos of those gigs and input from listeners whose ears I trust)
In their defense – even if they’re good listeners and sensitively tuned in to the music, without ever hearing us play before, there’s absolutely no way they can possibly know which instrument & what volume level I want to be heard on and be able to predict it in enough time to execute those changes flawlessly.

So I’ve learned to accept the fact that unless it’s a small venue gig and soundmen aren’t involved - the audience is seldom if ever going to hear it the way it was intended, but hopefully they’ll still enjoy it!

-- Marc

www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com

[Dan Beller-McKenna]

I could probably live with enjoying the sound on stage and not worrying about the fact that the audience is not getting what was intended. But there are two problems with this. One, most of the people I invite to a show want to hear me, in particular. Second, from a more philosophical standpoint, this approach sort of defeats the point of live music: if no one cares what they're hearing, why not just play a recording? (fightin' words, I know)

I am particularly peeved at the need some smallish venues feel to mike amps. The show from last night that I described in my first post could have easily stood to take the lead guitar and steel out of the PA and let them rip. I wasn't on stage, but my experience is that the monitors are usually turned up so darn high that there really isn't much finesse room left for "stage volume."

Dan-Crankpot-Beller-McKenna

[Jim Pitman]

I've had a sound man ask if he could move my volume pedal to the sound booth so he could operate it!
I think you need to emphasize to a sound man that you "self mix".
We had a steady sound guy for about a five year period an he got it eventually.
This sound man model whereby he takes an active part in every instruments dynamics during every song all not long is ridiculous....but I do see the majority of them doing just that.
Here's my sound man model:
If all the band is mixed well on stage and everyone can hear everyone else, then the audience mix can be made to mimic it then left alone. Concentrate on the stage mix first.

[Paul King]

Just because a guys says he is the sound man does not make him a sound man. In January I played for a church service to help a friend out. Their sound man put a mic on the amp and told me to keep the volume low on stage. Well, I did and he did too. I struggled to hear the steel in the mix on the recording. My biggest complaint is that most do not know how to make a steel sound like a steel. The old saying is a sound man can make you or break you. How true that saying is.

[Dave Grafe]

Don't even get me started on this again...

You can't fix this problem, Dan, ask your friends to sit right in front of you where they can hear your amp and set your amp up and play your guitar in a fashion that ensures that YOU enjoy it, nobody else can do that for you.

[Leslie Ehrlich]

I've never had a problem with volume at the few gigs I brought PSG to. I ran the PSG and guitar through the same amp and just used an A/B box to footswitch between the two instruments. The tone controls and level of overdrive worked fairly well for both instruments. I don't use a lot of gain when I play.

I used a Fender Roc Pro 1000 (which I still have), and if I wanted a clean sound for steel I'd just hit the mid shift button on the clean channel to scoop the mids. I didn't experience any loss in volume so long as the volumes on the clean channel and drive channel were evenly balanced.

[mike nolan]

I have had good results by setting the VP at about half volume during sound check... and not using it at all while the soundman sets levels. I will ask the soundman to leave the level alone. I play normally at the gig and am usually satisfied with the result. It is a good compromise.

[Larry Behm]

Dave Grafe (above) is one of the best sound men I have ever come aross, he really knocks it out of the park. I have heard him many times and it is always right on the money.

Thanks Dave for the great job you did with bands I was in over the years, it makes you (the player) relax knowing that the band will sound great.

Another great eng is Billy Triplet (Portland area), great ears.

Larry Behm

[Jack Aldrich]

For me, it's gone from the ridiculous to the sublime. Ridiculous - I was playing with the New Radio Cowboys at the Issiquah, WA Salmon Days in 1999. At the break, the sound man told me to "quit screwing around with the volume pedal. I know what level you should be at". It turns out he was running my channel's volume down and up as I was running the pedal up and down. It sounded TERRIBLE. Normal - I played clubs for years in bands with their own sonund systems - a real advantage because we mixed ourselves the way we wanted to be heard. The sublime - I was in the pit band at the Moore Theater in Seattle for the musical "Das Barbeque" (a real hoot). I went directly into the board from my volume pedal, and wish I could have kept Owen, the sound man. I sounded terrific! - JACK

[Bob Hoffnar]

I figured out a way to help understand and control my levels. I had a weekly gig with a great band at a club with a perfect sound system. I would give the sound man a set list and ask him to take notes about when I was too loud or too quiet and if there were any problem frequencies. After a bit I started to get a feel for how to control my dynamics. My goal was to be able to have a sound guy or producer in the studio just leave my fader alone. No limiter and no compression. If your volume levels are changing out of proportion to the rest of the music to the point where the soundman needs to correct it you are probably doing something wrong. Also if you need tons of compression the problem is most likely with you and not the sound guy. I look at every gig with a sound man as potential training for studio work. Learning how to control your dynamics takes the same sort of focused practice that playing in tune does.


With all that if I hear the soundman framing the house mix around the kick drum I give up all hope and try to have fun or think about the money. I played a gig last week where the soundman was pumping the subs so hard there was no way to tell what note the bass player was playing. Some club sound guys are morons and there is nothing you can do about that.

[Albert Svenddal]

I have had great success with my set up. I have my amp
set up on my right side at an angle. This I use as my monitor.
I use an EDI box that comes out from the speaker directly. It has
a small adjustment that I have set so that the same exact tone
I am hearing out of my speaker is the exact same tone that goes
to FOH. I then ask the sound guy to run flat EQ and no effects.
It usually works great. I also never use a big monitor in front
of me. Sound levels at most concerts are too loud already.

[chas smith]

got into the sound mans face so much the band told me to knock if off

My experience is, he's the last guy I want to piss off. In the kind of clubs I play, the steel guitar is the "weird" instrument, so I'm usually up, if not too much, in the mix. We typically have 15-20 minutes to set up and go. When it's my turn for check, I peddle down and give him the loudest that he can expect from me, then I noodle for a bit so he can hear what I'm going to do. After that, it's out of my control.

[Billy Tonnesen]

A "Soundman" can become a Defacto Conductor of the Band. He can help a Band or completely destroy the Band. He is going to adjust the Band the way he wants to hear it. IMHO, let the Soundman set the Band up the way the Band wants to hear itself and then send the Soundman off to lunch until the Gig is over.

[Chris LeDrew]

When I'm mic'ed on stage I just assume that the subtleties are being lost out front, so I put on the gas for licks and passages the same way I do for the solos. When I'm not being featured I usually just keep time at a relatively low volume and assume I'm contributing to the mix without being overtly heard - or I don't play at all, which is often an even better musical choice.

As with an orchestra, the blend is what counts as much as the separate instruments. I gig on bass from time to time, and I think bassists have to deal with this feeling of not being heard as well. The thump is there but sometimes not specific notes. I sort of like the feeling that I'm contributing to the mix without being overtly heard. Outside licks and solos, that's a good place to be. So when your friends say they can't hear you, they are probably focusing too much on you separately and not taking into account the steel's contribution as a piece of the puzzle.

An analogy can be drawn between this dynamic and that of David Crosby's voice. Joe Walsh once said that Crosby was the best singer in CSN because you can never hear him.