Tone: Another thought

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 4 Apr 2002 10:08 pm

In all the discussions I've seen here about tone, none I've seen have included one detail which is well known to 6 sting guitarists, and for which they even have switches and blend controls to manage: the distance between the pickup and the bridge. Has anyone here ever measured to see if the distance between the top of the changer rollers and the pole pieces in the pickups is consistent between makes and models of PSG? If there are differences in that distance, that's definitely going to create differences in sound between PSGs, independent of the choice of body material, strings, pickup, picks, picking position, and so on. It's a whole different variable. Think of a Stratocaster--it's got two pickups (or is it three? maybe that's the Telecaster), one close to the bridge for that biting, twangy sound, and another closer to the neck which gives a deeper, rounder tone. Most PSGs have the pickup fairly close to the changer. So small even differences in that distance can make for a significant percentage change and could effect the guitar's tone noticeably. I just measured my MSA U12, and the distance between the top of the changer and the center of my humbucking pickup is almost exactly 2 inches. What's that distance on an Emmons? On A ZumSteel? On a Carter? A Franklin? And so on.... Many folks aren't great enthusiasts about the sound of MSA's for example. Might that have something to do with this pickup-to-changer distance?

I dunno, maybe this distance is the same on all PSGs and I'm just full of hot air (especially after a meal of garlic-laden spaghetti and Brussels sprouts).

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Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 4 Apr 2002 11:43 pm

I've used the ratios of the Fender Stringmaster as a reference for locating the pickups on my Sho-Buds. The spacing of the pickups is important, but also where you pick the strings has an enormous effect on the tone. On C6, sometimes I'll pick the chord close to the bar as a tonal effect.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 5 Apr 2002 5:04 am

Has anyone here ever measured to see if the distance between the top of the changer rollers and the pole pieces in the pickups is consistent between makes and models of PSG?

Not all PUs have pole pieces exposed at the surface/top, so it's hard to compare apples to apples in that way. Recommended PU height starting points are different for GeoLs vs. Lawrences, for example. I just adjust the PU height in my 3 guitars to the 'sweet spot' where it's plenty hot (close to the strings), but but then I back off a bit if it sounds like it's getting harsh. If the PU is too high, particularly for a hot PU, you can really hear it when you're depressing the strings with the bar at ~the 12th fret. And this height is slightly different for different guitars and PU combinations.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if there is a standard, consistent PU height benchmark that can be applied across the board. That's my take, anyway.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 5 Apr 2002 6:15 am

Many years ago I remember looking at Moe Marshall's handmade guitar in Edmonton. It had a track for the pickup which slid up and down on the track varying the distance to the pickup. This was a spanish-style guitar.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 5 Apr 2002 6:17 am

I measured the distance from the center on the poles on the pick-up to the top center of the changer fingers and it was 1/4 difference between a Derby and the Emmons p/p. The Emmons was the closer of the two. Normally I put a quarter under the strings to adjust the pick-up distance. It's sounded great for single coils on the P/P and I have the BL 710's on a P/P now at the same distance and it's great.
I heard of a prominent player here that had his guitar necks changed out to get the pick-ups closer.

LeRoy Sawyer · Post by **LeRoy Sawyer** » 5 Apr 2002 7:46 am

I have an older Fender cable pull that may have started out life as a Fender 400. It had been abused by prior owners and may not be configured as it was when originally built. The point is that the pick-up is 1½" from the finger at the first string, and 2" from the finger at the 10 string and about ¼ below the strings and not adjustable. It was the first steel I ever saw and owned so I thought it was the way it was suppose to be. I have owned the guitar for over 25 years and someday hope to have it put back into original condition.

Roy

Bob Mainwaring · Post by **Bob Mainwaring** » 5 Apr 2002 8:02 am

The D10 Z.B. I have has adjustable pole-pieces while the SD10 are fixed.

The pickups on all Z.Bs. - as far as I know are all triple-wound with a Fender style toggle switch, this give a guy quite a lot of varience to play within.

I'm sure our friend Greg Jones - the new Z.B. guru will chime in on this one ....what say Greg????

Bob Mainwaring. Z.Bs. and other weird things.

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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Apr 2002 5:43 pm

Small differences in pickup placement will make small changes in the tone and the output level. But, as far as being "significant", I think a really good amp is far more important in the sound-chain.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 Apr 2002 9:34 am

The standard guitar uses open strings a lot. Placing the pickups directly under string harmonic points (mathematical fractions of the scale length) has a serious effect on the tonal content of a guitar.

The pedal steel player rarely uses open strings. The effective string length is constantly changing as he moves the bar. Positioning a pickup to enhance or attenuate harmonic content on a pedal steel is simply not possible in the way that it is done on standard electric guitars. The formulas based on scale length are relevant only to open stings.

Standard disclaimers apply.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 9 Apr 2002 3:56 pm

When I put an E-66 on my MSA, I think it was roughly centered on the same mounting as the original Supersustain pickup, but the E-66 is narrower. One very significant thing that I found, was that I needed to have the E-66 slightly higher on the side closer to the changer. Otherwise, there was a certain midrange muddiness. The effect of the tilt on the tone is also similar to picking closer to the changer. I wonder how many people have put a pickup on a guitar, and disliked the tone without trying this.