Matching speaker size to room size?

Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

Last night I tried out my new MB 200 with SICA 15" speaker at my monthly gig in a relatively small art gallery. The room has really nice acoustics under the right circumstances, but I just could not get my tone and volume dialed in right. I had the same issue with my tube combo with 15" speaker. I usually play this gig with my little 80's orange roland cube 30 with a 10" speaker and it ALWAYS sounds great. Lesson learned I guess.

My question is whether there are any good rules of thumb for matching speaker size to the room size. I have a hunch that(and it sounded like) the sound coming out of the 15" speaker was too dissipated. It didn't sound right in the mix with a small drum kit and amplified acoustic guitar.
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Rick-
(NOTE: this is all IMHO, just personal observations from a long-time guitar player who is somewhat new to steel)
I keep the 10db cut switch on the MB200 on for small (or mic'ed) gigs (effectively cuts the power to 20 watts, sort of, but with more headroom)....that seems to help the amp be in a better spot, things (even in a solid-state amp) seem to be not cooking with the power set at 200 watts and the GAIN knob down almost all the way....
I have a Huff cab with 15" SICA and it seems fine....I don't really see a difference between that and my tube amp with a 12" (distribution-wise, anyway, there surely is a tone difference).
I like that the 15" is probably somewhat less directional in small spaces where there isn't room to the sound to bloom out from the stage...

Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

Thanks for the response, Steve. I'll try that -10 db thing out. That might help a lot.

The distribution of sound was really strange. It was as though I couldn't dial in the right volume...the sound was either not focused enough or too big.

Does anyone out there use 15" speakers for quieter gigs and rehearsals?
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I don't feel there is any usable or practical correlation between speaker size and room size. If one rig sounds better than another, it's more likely to do with the amp and the EQ settings.

Glenn Uhler · From: Trenton, New Jersey, USA

Donny,
You are correct in saying that there is no direct correllation between speaker size and room size. However, maybe we can work backwards to develop one.

The sound level in any room is related to the sound pressure level produced by the speaker. The sound pressure level is determined by speaker efficiency multiplied by the speaker input power (amplifier watts). Speakers with larger voice coils are usually more efficient than smaller ones, and the same is true for speakers with more powerful magnets.

So, since larger speakers usually have larger voice coils and larger magnets, they are more efficient. Since they are more efficient, they will produce a higher sound pressure level per watt. Higher sound pressure levels will produce more sound at the back of the room.

Basically, a 15" speaker with the same sized voice coil and magnet as a 12" speaker will actually produce less sound pressure per watt, because it is trying to move more air.
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Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

I tried the -10db thing. Works great but may not be loud enough for much more than solo practice. Would switching out my 4 ohm to an 8 ohm speaker be a possible solution?
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I use the -10db switch playing out unmic'ed with a 7 piece rock band, with volume set at about 2 o'clock ....you might be surprised, as you turn the volume knob there is a lot that happens near the end, even with the -10db....

changing the speaker to 8 ohm will only REDUCE the volume, not increase it...I don't know how the sensitivity of the 15" SICA compares with other 4 ohm speakers, that would change it a little, but I think you will be happy with the SICA as is.

...get someone out in the crowd to tell you how loud you really are, it is deceptive when you are next to it....when we do sound check, I'm usually told to play quieter...

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

room acoustics definitely factor in to tone.

Some rooms have a lot of reflective surfaces and nothing sounds good in them. Usually in that case, the low end disappears and all you hear are shrill high notes bouncing back at you.

Some rooms have more sound absorption and will bring out the low and midrange of the amplifier. These are the best rooms to play in, in my opinion, because you actually get to hear the amp.

I don't think the physical size of the speaker matters nearly as much as the frequencies going through it, with the exception that a 15" will allow more low end through which in my experience is always a good thing. You can always EQ low end out, but you can never add it in.
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Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

Steve,

Maybe you're right. I do like to play with the volume pedal pretty far back. I suppose I could work with a little less forward travel.

Tim, this is one of those nice rooms that bring out the low end. I think the fact that my little cube 30 sounds so good in there says it all.

I guess I'll give it another try in march and see if the -10 gives me the sounds I need.
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Rick-
I wasn't talking about the volume pedal (not sure if that is what you meant), I just meant that even at -10db the MB200 gets a lot louder as you turn the GAIN knob, maybe you just have to crank the gain a bit more to keep your volume pedal travel.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The thing we should keep in mind is that a lot of this is pretty subjective. When someone says "I couldn't get my sound right", or "I couldn't get a good tone" that's a subjective statement. The sound might have been great, or the tone might have been real good off stage, but if you are judging just on what you hear (or think you hear), you're missing a lot of the equation. I'd never argue that amps and speakers don't sound different under different circumstances, and all of this boils down to conditions, player perception, and EQ, plain and simple. But I'm sure you've heard about players sitting down at their rig, which is in exactly the same place as the last time they played, and with exactly the same settings, and it just didn't sound the same (to them). It may have been the player's mood, or the humidity, or the other stuff in the room, component drift in the amp, etc. The list goes on and on. Really, so many things come into this and, sad to say, they can't always be analyzed or explained. Amps are different, speakers are different, enclosures are different, environmental conditions are different, and so on, and so on. If you're lucky enough to have multiple amps, and one amp doesn't sound as good as another, so what? Accept that, and use what sounds best at the time.

You see, my own simple-minded take on all this is just to get the best sound you can at the time, and then go on playing. The next gig will likely be different, the sound will change, and you'll likely have a whole new set of circumstances to deal with. Be forewarned, though, it's not always advisable to start changing speakers or buying amps if you get a bad sound in a few places, or if you're having trouble with your "tone" every now and then. A large part of what we hear is perception, and a lot of the used gear that is for sale is stuff that players once bought because they thought it sounded better than what they had...only to find out the "dream sound" sometimes just doesn't last. Oh Well

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

Thanks, Donny, I was trying to figure out how to put it best and you got 'er done for me Neutral

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

One more question...you ARE fronting that MB-200 with a Sarno Black Box, right? If you aren't, hustle over to a phone and order one, NOW. Your tone will thank you.....it made all the difference for me, 40 years of tube amps (which I still use in one band) gave way to the MB-200 (in the country band) thanks to the Black Box...

Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

Steve,

Still saving my pennies....till then I'm using a good amount of reverb to smooth things out.

-Rick
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

And one more BIG thing that I forgot....the 15" SICA needs serious break-in time to sound smooth....this could be part of the source of your discontent....

I put mine in a closet with blankets all around it and played an iPod through it at high volume for a few days....that did the trick.

And the Black Box. Oh, I mentioned that already? Worth saying again. The Black Box. Really...

Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

Thanks for the good advice, Steve. I think the SICA is starting to warm up last few rehearsals have been good with this rig.
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Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I find that one's position relative to one's amp changes everything. This lines up with physics really as the high end from a speakers is directional. It approaches being polar the bigger the speaker. This is one reason I now play through a 12" rather than a 15" speaker. It spreads the high end around better at short distances.
Anyway, if you don't like the sound the room is imparting on your amp, get closer to your amp and visa versa. Try postitioning your head more in line with the voice coil for mor highs. Turn your amp away for more lows.
There's very little you can do about a bad sounding highly reflective room for your listeners but you need to be happy with your sound to inspire yourself.
I play one gig that is so reflective we now turn way down and voila!

George McCann · From: Maui, USA

Steve,
Which SICA 15" model are you using? I looked at the website and there are a couple of different 4/8 ohm models listed. A couple at 250 watts and 350 watts plus a 250 watt with either steel or aluminum basket.
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I'm using the one Tommy Huff put in when he built the cabinet for me to hold the speaker and the MB-200....a really nice little package that he provides.

4 ohm, aluminum, 250 watt. PL15B25S

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Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

I'm using the same speaker as Steve, but in a home made cabinet with the amp hanging from my pack a seat.

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

This seems like a tedious task to apply for just one room. I guess if you only play that one I can see trying to tune for it.

How about having a couple cabs? Maybe a 12 and a 15. Try
A/B ing them for the most desirable sound in that venue and you'd have some versatility for others rooms too.

Also, I like the comment about your proximity to the speaker. That can make worlds of difference in how you hear the tone of it.

Rick Contino · From: Brattleboro, Vermont

Jerry,

Yes, I think I will probably build a 12" speaker cab for variety.
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Nice job on the cab, Jerry!
I like having mine in the speaker cab because I pick different amps for different bands, that way it is all in one place and I only have to remember one box...
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George McCann · From: Maui, USA

THANKS Rick and Steve.
I have an MB200 on order and should receive it next week, plus a black box. See I've been listing to ya'll...
Still haven't decided on a 15" speaker or 12" speaker plus 12" extension cabinet.

The cabinet Tommy Huff put together looks very portable. Does Tommy have a web site?
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As I've aged I've wondered why my mental powers haven't expanded like my waist line.
Rain SD-10, Fessy U-12,Harlow Dobro, Eastman 912 mandolin, Zhu Fiddle, guitars, gizmos and buu-kuu Amps

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

George-
He's on the Forum, just pm him...he has a number of threads describing what he does, e.g.,
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=129182&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

or call him at 361twofourfour3624
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