what the "tube sound" is to my ears- glassy

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

My primary rig is a Nashville 112 these days. However, when the situation warrants (big room), I'll send the signal from the direct out on the back of the N112, through a matching xfmr and into a Traynor Bass master tube head, driving a 15" JBL K130.

Also, one place I play supplies fender deluxe reverb amps for the backline. I'll sometimes add that amp as well, but I always still use the N112.

I've found that many tube amps I've tried are too crunchy for PSG, but if added to the clean sound of a good transistor amp, it is very nice. I did a studio session once through a really primo Twin Reverb with factory JBLs and it was biased so it was very clean- this was a great sound, although it did get a little crunchy after it got warmed up.

In all of these situations, what I hear coming out of the tube amp that distinguishes it, is in the high end. I hear a sharp crystalline treble that just sounds like the 1960's to me. I primarily play early honky tonk style and really like that brittle high end that I get out of a tube amp.

It's odd to me that most people describe the tube sound as warm. Yes, when you are a guitar player and you want a fat crunch, tube breakup is "warm". But when the amp is not overdriven and is clean, I would not call it warm. To me it is more "glassy". Whatever it is, I like it as long as it doesn't break up.

I'd love to be able to get that glassy high end with a lightweight solid state amp like an MB200. Maybe I should give my transtubefex another try. From what I can tell, most preamp/effect boxes that blather about the tube sound end up being primarily for tube distortion, not the clean tube sound.

What is the point of this post? I'm wondering if others hear this high end tone like I do. I know my hearing is compromised around 4k. And if anybody knows of a device that will make a solid state amp do this.
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"You call that thing a guitar?"

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Stick a Brad Sarno Black Box in front of the amp. End of story.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Thanks for the plug Steve. Yes, what the Black Box does is 100% tube and extremely clean and low distortion and wide open frequency response up to 200kHz. I agree, many "tube" enhanced devices actually are blending in some degree of tube distortion to create "warmth". We do it with high headroom, not that different from a real cleanly run Fender amp, high voltage, and very good audio signal path components.

To comment on the warmth and "glassy" issue. I think that has more to do with the way people naturally EQ a transistor amp. The highs in a transistor amp can be harsh and unforgiving, so people tend to tame the high end with the EQ and hide it to some degree. Tubes have a natural harmonic tone character that lets you keep things bright and clear up top. Those highs are nice and pleasing. So partially I think it's a matter of simply liking and showing off the sound of the highs in a tube amp and avoiding those same highs in a transistor amp. At least to some degree I think this is what happens with players and their amps.

Also, I think that the "warmth" that people describe with tube amps has more to do with the harmonic character and complexity of the midrange, that it is more gentle and easy on the ears, and when playing in the context of a band the sound comes thru in a more relaxed and blended and full kind of way instead of trying to slice and cut thru.

Brad

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Brad-
THANK YOU for finally answering a question that has confounded me since I started playing steel..."why does everyone insist on cutting the EQ at 800-1000 Hz", which basically loses the 3rd string at the 12 fret and a bunch of harmonics....and then people complain about wimpy 3rd string response...

With the Black Box in front of my MB200/15"SICA/Tommy Huff cab, I have no problem leaving the response flat, with a boost for the extreme low end....there are none of those "honky highs" people talk about. A definite noticeable improvement in tone compared to the amp without the Black Box...I did a blind A/B test with a loop cutout box (just a footswitch, no way to tell if it was straight through or Black Box without unplugging something to check) and chose the Black Box version every time...not "in your face" obvious, but definite nonetheless.

With my Matchless HC-30, a VOX-style amp that is ALL high mids, the sound is lovely...no way (or desire ) to cut them....

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

This all makes sense. Maybe I can sell my transtubefex with mem card for enough to buy a sarno black box!
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"You call that thing a guitar?"

Tommy Boswell · From: Virginia, USA

Lynn,

What kind of matching xfmr (transformer?) do you use between the NV112 and the tube amp? I have a NV112 and a Fender Bassman, but never thought about patching them together. Might try if I knew what to use.

Thanks,
Tommy

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

Well, I've now sold my transtubefex, and I immediately ordered a Sarno black box!

I'm really looking forward to this.

BTW, Brad, how come no standby switch on the black box? If it wasn't for voiding the warranty, I'd just wire one in myself...
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"You call that thing a guitar?"

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Lynn-
Check out this other thread on the Black box
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=217944

the tube lasts years, I'd say no need for standby..

Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

there is much debate over whether or not a standby switch is necessary for tube amps at all, but for a preamp tube its really not necessary. In a tube amp they serve the output tubes, if at all. Thats a whole other topic.
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Milkmansound.com

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Agreed Tim.

For a tube amp with power tubes, a stand-by can surely help with the longevity of the tubes by being able to go into stand-by mode during set break or when stepping away from the amp for a bit and not wanting to completely power down. Also a stand-by helps by letting the tube fully heat up before applying the high voltage which can be a bit rough on a tube by "cathode stripping". The end result is a shorter life for the tube without a stand-by.

The Black Box really doesn't need to go into stand-by mode once its on. And to address the power-up issue, I made the power supply with a LOT of filtering in the B+ supply so the voltage at the tube plates rises slowly and gently which helps the tube have a longer life and reduces the cathode stripping issue. Also, avoiding switches when possible is just another way to eliminate mechanical failure risk and also electrical contact oxidization. I want these Black Boxes still running as maintenance free as possible when they get handed down to our great grandkids. Many of us still enjoy 50+ year old Fender amps, so why not?

Brad

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

And Tim, on that topic, any of us using tube amps with tube rectifiers really don't need a stand-by when powering up because that rectifier tube won't deliver the high voltage until it's heated up. It's kind of like an automatic stand-by. But with solid state rectifiers, that high voltage is present instantly, and high voltage present at a cold tube that's not conducting yet, that's where the tube aging gets accelerated. Me, I count to 12 and then turn on my stand-by switches.

B

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

Brad- thanks for the cogent explanation. Yes, I can see how a huge filter cap will slow the rise of the B+ and cause less damage to the tube.
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"You call that thing a guitar?"

Dan Blaisdell · From: Raleigh, North Carolina, USA

Lynn,
You won't be disappointed in the Black Box. In fact, you might be stunned like I was at how good it makes your guitar sound. I play a GFI Ultra through a Nashville 112, and without the Sarno box the sound is "much less than ideal". Enjoy.
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GFI Ultra SD10 3+4,[Sarno Black Box], Hilton VP, Zoom MS-50, Special 130, Walker cases, Cobra Coil strings/bar, Not enough time.

Danny Letz · From: Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540

Brad is there any need in using a black box in front of the SMS Classic preamp? I thought on the Tonic you kinda had it built in. Or since the Classic is a tube preamp is there no benefit? I have a Black Box, but I didn't whether to use in this case.

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Hi Lynn,
I hear the tube sound exactly as you hear it.
There is a box specifically designed to do this. It is the VooDoo lab Sparkle Drive. It does pretty well. Not perfect, but it gets close. They don't really describe it well in the literature.

The trick is in how you adjust it. I agree with you exactly on what you describe as the glassy upper end. My theory is that what we are really hearing is a tiny bit of distortion mixed in so low that it is not perceptible as distortion, but rather as sparkle and glass. (Kind of like the old "sonic enhancer" effect.)
So the way to adjust the VooDoo Lab pedal is to play with adding tiny tiny amounts of distortion on top of the clean signal (the pedal is set up for this) and when you find the right spot you can hear the glassy top end come in before you can tell it has any distortion mixed with it.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Curt Langston · Posted 29 Jan 2012 9:12 am

"Bell-like chimes"

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Lynn, the biggest difference I hear between my Fender Steel King and my Fox rehabbed 64 Twin are the highs you describe. With my Twin they are really present, blended and not harsh. I now find myself trying to boost the highs on my FSK when I play it. There just isn't any way to make them stand out like they do on my Twin.
I'll play my FSK for awhile and get it sounding really good, just some delay and a touch of reverb. Then I plug into my Twin and those highs just jump out. Its like taking off some kind of muffler.
When i get a few extra bucks I'd like to try a Sarno Black Box in front of my FSK.
Let us know how you like yours.
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Zumsteel 12 Universal
SGBB
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FX to Taste

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Lynn,
You are hearing the same things I do. The regular solid state steel guitar amps just don't sound right. Even the new all tube Fender reissue stuff sounds fuzzy to me in the upper registers. Oddly enough I have an all solid state Standel "the Custom" from the mid 60's that sounds super open and sweet.
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Bob

Josh Yenne · From: Sonoma California

It is the age or story... you just can't get tube sound from solid state...

you can get good tones out of either but if you're trying to sound like the 1950's and 60's tones you love you are going to have a hard time finding it in a peavey I think... of course I've heard some spectacular tone come from Peaveys being played by great players...

That said... I have a Earth Drive from Sarno and if you put that in front of a solid state amp it would really help give it some life... Im sure his black box works well with that sort of thing also.

I just don't like solid state amps... god I wish I did cause they are light and generally cheap! and did I mention LIGHT??? Laughing

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