Day setup guys: Why?

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

What is the advantage, if any? Are we Emmons setup guys Missing something? What do you know that we don't?

[Roger Rettig]

C'mon, Mike - if ever there was a case for hitting the 'Search' icon, this is it!!

But, to go over old ground, my reason for using 'Day' was that the guy who imported steels to the UK in the '70s (ZBs and Emmons), Eric Snowball, had Gordon Huntley do all the set-up work on the new guitars. Gordon was a 'Day' player so, unless one knew any better and requested it the wrong way around, then your new guitar would be 'Day'.

That's how I ended up as I am - I occasionally give myself a work-out on an 'Emmons' set-up but it's far from comfortable for me, as you'd expect.

Is there a difference? Yes - it's all back-to-front; is one better than the other? NO! Maybe there's a case for the 'E' guys having more chance to sit in on another chap's guitar, and maybe you'll find more of these on a showroom floor, but, apart from that, everything lays out as a mirror-image of the opposing set-up (usually, anyway).

I've never found that rolling my ankle (in order to come off-and-on the 'A' pedal) to the right as the Emmons set-up requires is a particularly easy movement (like when I roll off-and-on my C pedal) but I imagine that one can get used to anything.

Oh, and there have been a whole bunch of really great players who decided to copy me ( ) and play 'Day' - my hero, Tommy White, is just one.

[Larry Hamilton]

It was a regional deal for me and just learned that way. A couple of my buddies play Emmons style here in Amarillo and over the years of playing (trying to play) theirs, with more time I think a could change to Emmons. But no real reason to. Which ever way you learn and are comfortable with, play it.

[Brint Hannay]

It could be that variations in one's specific anatomy would make one setup preferable to the other, but I suspect for most it's a simple matter of what you got used to when learning at the outset.

One constantly rolls the ankle both ways in either case. There is a physical difference, though, in that with the "Day" setup, the "home" position of the foot (over pedals A & B, or B & A if you prefer) is more centered, by one pedal-width, which would seem to have some potential effect on ergonomics and/or playing comfort. Interestingly, "Emmons" players who add a "zero" pedal at the leftmost position get this same positioning of the "primary" pedals.

[Clete Ritta]

Why do folks in the US drive on the right side of the road while folks in the UK drive on the left side? Both systems seem to work for accomplishing the rules of the road. While the steering wheel and oncoming traffic on the other side, and maybe manually shifting gears with the other hand since the stick remains in the center (or centre) must seem daunting at first, its often been done before. Adapting from an Emmons to Day setup cant be nearly as hard as adapting to playing a left handed guitar if you're right handed though. Maybe the car analogy isnt so good. With either setup, the pedal steel guitar is probably more like a helicopter!

Clete

[Richard Sinkler]

WHY NOT?????


EMMONS --- WHY????


Clete said:

Why do folks in the US drive on the right side of the road while folks in the UK drive on the left side?

Unfortunately, coming home from gigs late at night, we here in America have people that try to drive on the left side of the road.

[Johnny Cox]

When I was a pup learning I hung out with Hal, Weldon and Sonny Burnette primarily at the Opry. They all had Day setup. Then when I started hanging out with Buddy I switched. I've gone back and forth several time but am most comfy with Day setup. If you stand and bend your ankle see which way feels natural. To turn it to the left (outside) or right (inside). That test did it for me. I find it just as easy to play either way but with the Day setup I can lower 5&10 on p4 without rearranging my entire E9th floor pedal setup.

[Jake Gathright]

I think it's all a matter of how your first guitar was set up when you got it. haha

[Eddie Lane]

I started on the Emmons set up in the mid 70s. I was having a little trouble bending my ankle. Zane Beck told me that my ankle would bend farther going the other way so I tried the Day setup. He was right. I have been using the Day setup since. This may not be true for everyone but it works for me.

[Paddy Long]

Most of my gigs are at Night, so I don't use the Day setup !

[Mark van Allen]

I've really looked at this question, Mike, and the one "advantage" I can see to Emmons setup is that in most areas of the country and at steel shows, more guitars are setup Emmons style and hence it may be more comfortable to try out new and different guitars if you're most comfortable with that.
I started on Emmons setup, and some years ago fell off a roof and dislocated my ankle, I reversed the setup on the Mullen I was playing at the time and as my ankle healed and scarred up a bit, the Day setup was easier to play. Eventually I went back to Emmons for the reasons I mentioned above, and worked on stretching my ligaments back out.
Watching many students over the years, it really looks like most people's ankles bend further or easier in one direction than the other. So physical comfort or limitations, and how often one wants to play on display or friend's guitars?

[b0b]

Day setup (CBA) is better for U-12 because the A pedal can be combined with the C6th P4 to good effect. Not so much with the C pedal, which tends to draw an imaginary line between the E9th and C6th "sides" of the tuning.

As for 10 string E9th, I think that a lot of people just find it more comfortable. Each person's body is different, and some just find the movements more natural going the other way. I think that short people tend to prefer Day more, because they don't have to reach so far to get the A+B home position.

[Ken Byng]

I would echo Roger Rettig's reply 100%. I have played Day pedals since 1972 for exactly the same reason. (oh and I am not short by the way)

Ergonomically, the Day pedal set up is far more comfortable for me. The down side is when I go to Bobbe Seymour's store and every guitar is set up Emmons. He always says "play something for me" and I end up looking like a complete novice on E9 so I tend to stick to C6.

Then he tells me that Tommy White can play Emmons pedals perfectly. Thanks Bobbe - there is a gulf the width of the Atlantic Ocean between Tommy and I in terms of playing ability.

It is ironic that many of my favourite players play Day set up.

[Roger Rettig]

Oh!!!! So - now I'm 'short', am I????



' '

(This was for b0b, by the way - not Ken!)

[Ken Byng]

I guessed that Roger.

It is a fact that because of Gordon Huntley, we still have more players in the UK who play Day pedals than Emmons. However to go back to Mike Perlowin's original post, there is no advantage of one set up over the other. They both get you to where you want to go, but by a slightly different route.

[Justin Griffith]

For what it is worth, I started with an "Emmons" pedal setup and will most likely not change. I dont agree with the "Emmons knee lever setup, but that is a different topic.

As far as the Day VS Emmons setup, you should ask Jerry Blanton. He has a lot of (good) reasons for using the day setup. Something about the ball in your foot and the way your ankle is constructed. Jerry almost had me convinced to change. His ideas make alot of sense.
I think most of his guitars came setup Day style unless the owner specified. I know I have changed several of them over.

It all about the music anyway. Just play what you like!

Good Luck!
Justin

[Richard Sinkler]

I might add that I also started on the Emmons setup
- the wrong way (just kiddin' guys), but switched on the advice of a local player. I can play a little on an Emmons setup if the E raises and lowers are on the left knee as mine are (of course they would be backwards). I often sit in on a friends guitar but obviously not as fluent as my own setup. If the E's are split between the knees or on the right knee, I'm a dead man.

As far as the trying out of new guitar, I see no advantage of having the Emmons setup. You can still test drive a guitar to tell how it plays and how it sounds. Remember, that's not a paying gig, but simply trying out a guitar. It has never hurt me when trying out guitars.

[Brint Hannay]

Surely there's no shame in being short!

I don't know if 5'8-9" (my height) qualifies as "short," but I play the Emmons pedal setup, and have guitars with the standard three E9 pedals and guitars with a "zero" pedal, which, as I noted, moves the two "primary" pedals in from the end of the guitar the same as the Day setup does. For me, while I have no problem playing the three-pedal guitars, I do notice it's a bit more comfortable for me playing the ones with the "zero" pedal.

I'm curious about the anatomical arguments for Day setup that Justin mentioned, though it still seems to me that issue is moot, because playing requires execution of ankle rolls both ways essentially equally anyway.

[Roger Rettig]

I don't agree, Brint; I know I roll on and off my A pedal (C, actually, but you know what I mean) with my B depressed far more often than I roll on and off the B pedal with A depressed.

That's the main issue with Day vs. Emmons for me, although I obviously could have learned the Emmons pedals had they been what I first encountered.

I find it difficult to roll on-and-off my first pedal (my C) with B engaged and that move is what those strange Emmons guys do all the time ; I can do it, of course, and do, but it's a constant reminder of how comfortable I find 'Day'.

[Bill Moran]

Most of my gigs are at Night, so I don't use the Day setup !

Black guitar, no doubt !

[b0b]

Joe Wright says that you should be able to roll both ways equally. If you develop that technique well enough, the advantage of CBA at the ankle becomes moot.

I really think that Jeff Newman used CBA so that the A pedal would be handier when playing the so-called "B6th side" of his U-12. Also, Jeff wasn't a tall guy.

[Brint Hannay]

Roger, perhaps "rolls" isn't the word I should have chosen. I'm thinking of all the ankle tilts: pressing A or B alone, pressing one first and then adding the other, pressing both and then rolling off one or the other.

I'd say it's a given that people's anatomies differ, so that what's harder or more uncomfortable for one is not for another. At a good sports shoe store, they check the customer for whether their foot naturally tends to pronate (rotation of the medial bones in the midtarsal region of the foot inward and downward so that in walking the foot tends to come down on its inner margin) before recommending a brand of shoe, for example.

[Dan Burnham]

Amen Johnny, I'm with you, it just feels more natural and I started out on the Emmons setup.

Dan

[Henry Matthews]

When I first started playing steel, I was hanging out in the Evans amp shop with Darrel Stevens and he kept his guitar set up so I actually put in more playing time on his guitar than I did mine when I got it and his was an Emmons set up. So when I got my first guitar, it was an S-10 BMI with Day setup and even though I learned on Emmons set up, the Day just seemed more natural and made more sense. Not saying it's better but mechanically and motion as compared to bar and peddle movement, it still makes more sense. I can play either setup but my ankle just won't work on the Emmons as well as Day for some reasonand also what Johnny Cox said about 4th pedal. My 2 cents****

[Ken Byng]

.....I find it just as easy to play either way but with the Day setup I can lower 5&10 on p4 without rearranging my entire E9th floor pedal setup.....

It has just dawned on me what the advantage is with that arrangement. Press the A pedal raise B's to C#(Day) with pedal 4 lowering B's to Bb, and you have a precise half pedal change on strings 5 & 10 once the splits have been set. Simple - why didn't I think of that.