| Author |
Topic: Rack and Barrel setup??? |
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 16 Jan 2012 11:55 pm |
|
If you have two barrels on 1 rod, I.e., A pedal-5th string ,and C pedal-5 string,would you set and tune the barrel on the C pedal first or on the A pedal. I'm trying the barrel on C first, that's not working to well.  Also, same situation on the 4 string-LKL, and the 4th string-C pedal. I thought you tune the barrel closest to the changer first, when you have more than 1 barrel on the same rod. Need some expert advice on this one.
Another question. Is there a set method to timing pulls, say the 3rd and 6th on the B pedal. Or the best idea for setting the barrels if your raising or lowering a half tone, whole tone, or a full tone and 1/2, i.e., How close to set the barrel. Set the barrels close up to the rack or an 1/8 or so away? I know it has to do with how far you want to pull that change. Also, how many turns from all the way in, do you typically set these in relation to the change your setting up. Thanks in advance for all help!! |
|
|
|
CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 12:24 am
|
|
i can't really help you on the timing of the pulls Todd but, there is supposed to be a bit slack between the barrel & the rack
not uptight against them
as to setting the barrels for tuning, turn all the way to the right & turn back 4 complete turns to center them
info is here :
http://steelguitar.com/manuals/Sho~Bud_OwnersManual_1.pdf |
|
|
|
Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 5:15 am
|
|
CrowBear pretty well fixed you up. One thing you may or may not know is that you have to hold down whatever pedal or knee lever you are tuning. If not the pull rod and barrel will just spin.
It is a perfectly fine setup once you get used to how it works.
If you still are having trouble, holler and I will walk you through it on the phone.
Best,
Justin
_________________
Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
|
|
|
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 7:01 am
|
|
Thanks Crowbear, I hadn't seen that page. The way I read that, you start with the A pedal and go from there. Nothing about which one to tune first , if you have 2 barrels on 1 rod.
I've got a pretty good handle on this R&B. I' ve pulled all the old barrels off. I've replaced them all with brand new replacements from Michael Yahl. Justin, I might take you up on that offer. |
|
|
|
Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 7:09 am
|
|
Todd, if memory serves, on a later page where they give the copedant they circle the note on the highest string on each pedal/lever and suggest you do that one first, since it requires the longest throw.
Dan |
|
|
|
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 7:37 am
|
|
Understood, but is there no sequence to tune multiple barrels on a single rod? Do you just tune the one that has the most travel first. Or the one closest to the changer, or the one furthest away from the changer.
This is the only thing hanging me up. 5th string, A & C pedal, and 4th string raise on the C pedal & LKL. Is it the same rule, Just tune the pull that's gonna have the most travel first, regardless of how many barrels are on a particular rod? |
|
|
|
Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 8:07 am
|
|
aha! I see your point now. Seems like they are implying that you go with the barrel farthest from the changer first, but they never mention knee levers, only pedals. I would surmise from this (and I could be totally off) that you would apply the "fartest-from-the-changer" principle at all times. Thus, you would tune the changes on knee levers as they are introduced in the "chain," presumably ending with RKR.
Someone with more expertise want to chime in here?
Dan |
|
|
|
Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 8:18 am
|
|
Like others have said, you need to tune the "longest" pull first on any pedal or lever. Set your stop to the longest pull, then continue. I don't thing it makes a whole bunch of difference which pedal or lever gets tuned first as long as you tune the longest pull first. IE: I'd tune the e to f# pull before the e to f.
Hope this helps.
Justin
_________________
Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
|
|
|
Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 8:44 am
|
|
It doesn't really matter which barrel you tune first...but it does matter which string you set the pedal stop for first. And that would be the one that requires the longer travel...the one that's circled on the chart from the owners manual.
That way, the barrel that travels further will be closer to the rack, and the other one will have a bit a space between it and the rack.
That's just the way a R&B Bud works. There really isn't a way to time the pulls like there is on, for ex...an Emmons Legrande with 14 hole bellcranks.
It's not really a big deal...just one of the quirks of the R&B setup. |
|
|
|
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 8:58 am
|
|
Thanks, Skip, Justin, and everyone else. I'm sure I'm making this harder than it is! That's just what I do. Ha!
No, I've not adjusted any stops, it was setup good before I switched out all the barrels. So those are good. Everything seemed to go pretty smooth, except that 5th string 'cause that's got the 2 barrels on the rod, and also the 4th string. I was trying to tune the barrel on the C pedal first. Then when I tuned the A pedal barrel it would overtune, and start pushing the finger, making the open tuning go sharp. I guess I need to tune the A pedal barrel first.
Are none of the barrels supposed to sit tight against the rack? or is it fine if some do? |
|
|
|
Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 10:19 am
|
|
| Todd, you have to allow clearance so the barrels don't contact the racks when at rest. If i were setting up the 5th string, here is how I would do it. First, loosen the set screw on one barrel, either one, so it is not tight on the rod. On the barrel still connected to the rod, screw in the threaded part half way. Loosen the set screw on that barrel, move it about 3/16" from the rack, tighten the screw. Step on the pedal, tune the raise, release the pedal. Check to see if the barrel now seems closer to the rack, then before. If it seems too close, you may need less travel on the pedal, if it's farther away, you may need less travel. If you have to adjust the stop, retune,etc. If that raise works OK, do the other. Adjust the threaded part of the barrel to the half-way position, move the barrel to about the same distance from the rack as the other barrel. tune it up, check the travel for the second pedal, adjust so that everything works, with a bit of space between the each barrel and it's rack when at rest. As for the 4th string, like mentioned above, set the C pedal raise first, make sure it's working, then set the F lever. |
|
|
|
Michael Yahl
From:
Troy, Texas!
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 10:38 am
|
|
No, the barrel should never be in contact with the rack at rest. Always have 1/64-1/32" (.015-.031") between the rack face/edges and the face of the barrel. If there is contact, you'll chase your tuning 'till you're blue.
Also just a note, I found in an old thread discussing the R&B's, that David Jackson designed this system and the intent was that the rack was oriented with the open side (channel) facing the barrel. It was speculated that at some point during production assembly, someone set them up backwards and from then on that's the way they were assembled.
This causes some problems with tuning the barrels when the solid face of the rack is facing the barrels as most of the wire spring tips on the barrels (yes, there should be a protrusion of about 1/16" or .062" of the spring end past the face of the barrel) have a tough time finding a point to catch on in order to effect the barrel adjustment. I beleive that this has been the cause of the most frustration with the R&B system.
By flipping the racks so that the open side is adjacent to the barrel face, it provides a much better surface, the inside of the rack, to arrest the rotation of the forward end of the barrel and permit a positive feel for the adjustment.
At no time should the barrel be is a full "lock" condition where the spring is fully compressed.
There must be some gap in the spring so that in the event the rod rotates, during normal playing, to a point where the end of the spring tip is aligned with a solid surface on the rack, the tip has the ability to be pushed backwards into the barrel face until it is flush. This is another mistake commonly made during initial setup. When this occurs and there is insufficient travel for the spring tip to retract, it will definately affect the tuning for whatever string when it is activated. Hence, this is one of the reasons that the R&B system gets bad press.
I've heard of guys cutting the spring tip off! This just disables the entire tuning aspect of the barrel as that is the key feature that prevents the forward portion of the barrel from rotating thereby allowing the rear portion to rotate and adjust on the thread.
Note: There are 40 threads per inch on the barrel. This is the same as the threads on a micrometer. 40 TPI divided by 1 inch gives a .025" pitch/travel in 1 rotation.
So, there you have the design intent and criteria for these little jewels.
Todd, once you've gone through it enough times and have that 'AH HA!' moment, it won't seem so difficult.
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp
PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/ |
|
|
|
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 11:05 am
|
|
| Michael, that is the first time I've heard that. Everybody has the rack turned the other way. That does make so much more sense!! I can see how it would be much easier on the tips of the barrels. Might keep from breaking and bending 'em. Excellent input Michael!!! |
|
|
|
Michael Yahl
From:
Troy, Texas!
|
|
|
|
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 11:19 am
|
|
Looks like that's the way mine is going back together!  |
|
|
|
CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 12:19 pm
|
|
you learn somethin' every day !
Thanx Michael 
no i don't have my rack & barrel Professional anymore
but it was a great horn & the guy that has it keeps it cookin' |
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 12:45 pm
|
|
Michael,
What do you think of this? I'm thinking if you flip the racks,with all the slop that is Shobud, sometimes the face of the barrel,during a pull, will only catch one side of the rack, tilting it as it pulls making for a very inconsistant pull. Would it not pull a little differant lengh when it does catch both sides of the rack as compared to both? Using the closed end and possibly squareing off the Barrel to rack contact area with a dremel tool, might work better.
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
Michael Yahl
From:
Troy, Texas!
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 12:52 pm
|
|
Why not just squeeze the rack together evenly all the way across? Much faster and easier!
When they come out of the form die they spring open slightly. There's plenty of tolerance and clearance there. I did that on several of mine. Just don't get over zealous but if you do, they can be opened back up just as easily.
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp
PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/ |
|
|
|
Todd Brown
From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
|
Posted 17 Jan 2012 3:43 pm
|
|
Just flipped a couple of the racks over, and reset the barrels. Seems like that is the way to go!! You can feel the tip of the barrel grabbing better, and it seems you can get it a little more precise tuning the pulls. Like was said in the thread that was linked to above, with the rack oriented open side facing the barrel, you have 8 points for the spring tip possibly to contact, so as to adjust tuning, verses only 4 points of contact with the flat side of the rack. Reversing the racks like this also leads me to believe the tips on the barrels are likely to last a little longer.
So, I think I got the method down for setting the barrels. The little "trick" of flipping the rack around is just icing on the cake! I'm gonna restore the whole bottom of this thing in the next couple weeks. I'll be sure and share some pics with y'all. Thanks everybody!! I love you guys   |
|
|
|
Alan Berdoulay
|
Posted 18 Jan 2012 4:37 am
|
|
| Michael. Good information. Clear and concise. Thank you. |
|
|
|
Michael Yahl
From:
Troy, Texas!
|
Posted 18 Jan 2012 6:33 am
|
|
No problem, Amigos!
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp
PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/ |
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 18 Jan 2012 12:34 pm
|
|
Good advice Mike, even if you can't spell Peavey. 
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 18 Jan 2012 7:44 pm
|
|
Michael,
I just wanted to thank you for all the info we talked about today - I was wondering about the spring barely catching the rack with the rounded edges - reversing it makes more sense!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
