Whose problem is this???

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 6 Jan 2012 3:36 pm

I just got a new pedal steel student, middle aged guy, total beginner.. He bought a brand new S-10, major brand, top dollar.. Bought it from a well known retailer.. Can't mention names around here because the " don't disrespect the builder/seller" police will be up in arms... Anyway, brand new steel, and the guy can't play it.. Its way too short. He's 6 foot tall, same as me.. Not overly tall guy at all.
Can't get his legs under the guitar. I can, barely, but its tough to hit any levers.. I would be unhappy with this guitar as it is, and I LIKE short steels.
Legs are up all the way.. design leaves very limited adjustment.. So anyway, the builder wants $125 for a lift kit, on a brand new guitar..
I was furious over this.. If my name/initials/logo/trademark was on a steel, and the poor guy can't play it, the needed fix would be at his door next day, FREE, with an apology.. Same for the retailer,,
So this new player has an unplayable guitar, the retailer has his $3+, and the builder has whatever the retailer paid him for the guitar..
This guitar was bought from the retailer from his website, the guy never played it.. It was shipped to him here in NY. IMHO, the seller/builder are NOT stepping up to the plate, leaving a new player that knows nothing about steels to fend for himself... I am really angry about this, but hey, what do I know??.. What say you all??? bob

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 6 Jan 2012 3:43 pm

Let us know who it is Bob so no one on the Forum deals with them !

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 6 Jan 2012 3:51 pm

Bill Moran wrote:Let us know who it is Bob so no one on the Forum deals with them !

At least give them a chance to read this and offer a solution.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 6 Jan 2012 3:55 pm

Bill Moran wrote:Let us know who it is Bob so no one on the Forum deals with them !

No, can't do that.. the builder and seller have lots of friends, and lots and lots of happy customers... except one...

I was shocked when the builder wanted $125 to make this guitar usable.. His reputation is stellar, and many guys play his steels.

bob

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 6 Jan 2012 4:02 pm

My personal feeling about this sort of thing is that if a manufacturer is willing to take $3K or more for a brand-new single-neck pedal guitar they had better be ready to make it fit the purchaser or refund the money so that it can be spent on a used guitar that works really well, purchased from a seller who gives a hoot about customer satisfaction. There are plenty of such sellers right here on the forum, selling well-maintained and set up used guitars that are very likely superior in build, playability and tone to many new products.

I am assuming that your student has already asked for an even exchange of the legs and rods, if they are still in as-new condition this should cost the builder little more than the shipping fees, considerably less than the loss of business and reputation that will inevitably follow their selfish pig-headedness. If the builder cannot or will not respond to the buyer's needs or the teacher's encouragement they deserve to be publicly outed here for all to know about; if they have a valid argument in their favor they can present it here and it will be fairly judged, but to allow their identity to remain a secret is doing nobody any favors at all.

There are plenty of honest and compassionate business folk who recognize the occasional need to take the hit and do the right thing to ensure customer satisfaction, myself included. Those who are so obsessed with their bottom line that they piss on their customers like this do not deserve to remain in the marketplace, period.

Refer the buyer AND the builder to this thread and give them one more chance to reach an amicable solution, if a reasonable time poasses and still no joy then tell us who they are and sit back to watch the show

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Jan 2012 4:06 pm

Most builders I know build guitars for the average height player (I was told they build for someone around 5'10"). You can't fault the builder for not making a guitar that doesn't fit someone outside that envelope. They can't tell how tall a player is without them talking to the customer. This would have been the responsibility of the person buying the guitar to convey how tall or short he is to the builder, or most likely to the retailer acting as the go-between.

Now, that being said, if I was the manufacturer, I would consider a straight across trade with the customer. There would have to be no scratches or damage to any of the legs or rods, but I would still try to remedy the situation. $125 for a lift kit.

Seymore has them for $20 for an S10 and $50 for a D10. Sounds like at $125 it would be new rods and maybe front legs so you didn't have to use a lift kit.

I don't think naming names here is in anyone's best interest. This can happen with every retailer and every builder. And, every builder and retailer SHOULD cover things like the height of a person when selling a new guitar.

EDIT: By the way, a few builders do charge extra for guitars that are shorter or taller than their standard. Don't know why, but they do.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 6 Jan 2012 4:19 pm

Richerd.. he's only 6 foot, not 6'6... There should be adequate adjustment... ts maxed out, and he can't play it.. I am now 5 11 having shrunk an inch in the past 10 years, and it was too short for me as well. bob

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 6 Jan 2012 4:25 pm

I am 6'1" tall and have played many guitars of various brands, all built for the "average" player, and have never encountered an instrument that did not have the requisite adjustment capacity to accomodate me with or without heeled boots. To produce a new instrument selling for top dollar and not do likewise is a serious shortcoming on the part of the builder and IMHO not to be considered "normal" or acceptable. Perhaps the retailer had a part in this debacle but there are no valid excuses for this monkey business, the people who have this man's money need to step up and make it right and soon!

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 6 Jan 2012 4:28 pm

I don't blame the manufacturer at all!! Taller legs is apparently/probably an option that could have been requested at the time the order was placed. The manufacturer can't be expected to be clairvoyant.

The retailer, however, presumably had face to face dealings with the purchaser and should have realized the need to include in the order the specification for longer legs. If the retailer did not have face to face contact with the buyer, the retailer should have at least raised the subject with the buyer.

Additionally, the buyer has to assume some responsibility if he or she reviewed the manufacturer's website, that presumably mentions a longer leg option, and failed to ask for the longer legs.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Jan 2012 4:30 pm

I had that problem when I got my Williams that I used to have. It was the same height under the guitar as my Carter, but I still had to go to a low profile pedal to get my right knee under the guitar. I understand your problem, but castrating the builder is not the answer. If he is a reputable builder, and we haven't heard complaints about this before, well... The other thing to consider is, even 2 people the same height can differ greatly in the length of their torso's and legs. This can make a guitar playable by one but not another.

My advice is for the owner to contact the builder and bypass the retailer. See if that helps.

Bob... Out of curiosity, what is the measurement from the floor to the bottom of the front of the guitar?

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 6 Jan 2012 4:55 pm

I have ordered guitars in the past that were too short. Many guitars of the same deck height on top have different thicknesses of structure below the deck and some can end up sitting on top of your legs. It's important when ordering to pick the floor height from the lowest extremity of the underside and allow room for whatever shoes you intend to wear. For the knee levers to actuate easily you need to have your leg hit them well below their mount points.

Even so I can't imagine a reputable manufacturer not swapping out the front legs and rods for a taller set.

Let us know how you make out with this.

Greg

Carson Leighton · Post by **Carson Leighton** » 6 Jan 2012 4:58 pm

Bob,,if the guitar was built to standard height, which I think is about 30 inches from the floor to the top of the strings,,there probably isn't a whole lot that can be done about it legally...In all fairness though,,the builder should trade the legs and rods for longer ones to make the customer happy..It's only good business, and the smart thing to do...The internet can leave a lot of scars...Carson

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Jan 2012 5:03 pm

That's true Greg. When you order a guitar and want to specify the height, they want to know the distance between the floor and the bottom of the guitar where the front leg screws in. That is the point where you most likely can't get any adjustment because of the length of the pedal rods. The top of the guitar will be higher on some brands than others.

Like I said earlier, if I was the builder, I would do what I had to to make it right. At this point it doesn't matter who is perceived to be at fault. Get the guy fixed up so he can play it.

Carson... The standard height is measured as I stated above, not to the top of the strings because of the difference in body thickness of different brands. Bill Rudolph at Williams told me that 27-1/2" was "standard" (although it may have been 26-1/2" - was a while ago).

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 6 Jan 2012 5:10 pm

Although we are around the same height, this guys legs are longer, no doubt.. You guys have to realize, this guy had NEVER had any steel before, he bought something he knew nothing about.. He had no idea what to expect... I don't blame the builder for building the guitar the way he did, but I do think he should not be charging $125 so that it can be played.. I have avergage legs, and this guitar is tough for me as well, and I NEVER had a problem getting under any other guitar in my life, and I have played dozens and dozens over my 33 years of steel playing... From what I gather, my "student" is going to make his own "lift kit".. I take it he's pretty mechanical... My point is just this.. he really shouldn't have to... He bought a top flight steel, brand new from a well established and respected retailer.
bob

Carson Leighton · Post by **Carson Leighton** » 6 Jan 2012 5:20 pm

Richard,,thanks for correcting me...Carson

Chuck Thompson · Post by **Chuck Thompson** » 6 Jan 2012 5:49 pm

Bob - is it possible that the legs are not stamdard? maybe something got mixed up?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Jan 2012 6:00 pm

I don't blame the builder for building the guitar the way he did, but I do think he should not be charging $125 so that it can be played.

Bob... I agree 100%

Although I don't fault the builder, or your student, I would still try to get the builder to change out the rods and front legs. If he is a builder that does charge up front for different heights, he could work something out with customer. Of the 5 builders I know that do charge, they are usually around $50 or less. I personally would do a free swap unless I had to special order the legs and rods from another vendor.

I would like to know where the retailer stands on this.

Have your student be cautious about the lift kit as to not scratch the legs. That will kill any chance of getting the builder to swap them out. Actually, he could probably just put a longer dowel in the front legs and lift just the rods. But again, I would still try to reach a satisfactory ending with builder/retailer.

Something for the builders -- Maybe put what your standard measurement is on your website. It is a real good point Bob made about someone not real versed in this stuff to assume that he had to supply his measurements.

By the way, the 5 builders that charge (according to their websites) are: Emmons, Jackson, Mullen, Show Pro, and Zumsteel.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 6 Jan 2012 6:05 pm

When you buy something that you know nothing about over the internet, you have to expect there may be a few problems to be ironed out. The buyer might have been trying to save a few bucks by buying on-line. Sometimes that works out, and sometimes it doesn't.

Having to pay another $125, on an internet purchase of over $3,000, to make it fit you when you didn't specify your size, is no big deal. He should suck it up and pay it.

Is $125 too much for a set of legs and pedal rods (with shipping?)?

No!!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Jan 2012 6:07 pm

I think most charge close to $50 for 1 new leg. I had to buy new rods for a ZB one time (in the 70's) and they were $10 each. That's why I think the $125 was for 2 legs and 3 rods. If it was for a "lift Kit", he should raked over the coals unless it was a gold plated kit.

Chris Robbins · Post by **Chris Robbins** » 6 Jan 2012 7:12 pm

I Bought a new Rains a couple years ago and they sent me a lift kit for a 4 by 5 for five bucks.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 6 Jan 2012 7:30 pm

It's the retailer's responsibility, not the builder. It should br taken care of by the retailer. He took the sale.

Dan Burnham · Post by **Dan Burnham** » 6 Jan 2012 8:36 pm

If I was the retailer I would eat the cost to keep the customer. Many times it's the service after the sell that keeps the customer coming back. As a builder, if the retailer doesn't ask those questions, the builder only knows what the retailer orders.

At BMI, we try to have a new player measure from the floor to the top of their knee as a guide line to know if we need to raise it or lower it when we send it out.

We don't charger extra for new guitars to put lift kits on them nor do we charger to lower new guitars.

I know your friend is disappointed, I hope the parties responsible will make it right, this is a bad reflection on all builders when the names are withheld.

I would encourage your friend to continue to request the changes to be made by the retailer.

Dan

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 6 Jan 2012 9:10 pm

Exactly right Dan. BMI guitars would never let that happen.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Jan 2012 4:56 am

Dan Burnham wrote:If I was the retailer I would eat the cost to keep the customer. Many times it's the service after the sell that keeps the customer coming back. As a builder, if the retailer doesn't ask those questions, the builder only knows what the retailer orders.

At BMI, we try to have a new player measure from the floor to the top of their knee as a guide line to know if we need to raise it or lower it when we send it out.

We don't charger extra for new guitars to put lift kits on them nor do we charger to lower new guitars.

I know your friend is disappointed, I hope the parties responsible will make it right, this is a bad reflection on all builders when the names are withheld.

I would encourage your friend to continue to request the changes to be made by the retailer.

Dan

Dan.. I understand what you are saying, but I don't want to start a war here.. Years ago, I bought a Carter from the late John Fabian. It arrived and was the wrong color,and the GeorgeL pickup had problems.. kept cutting out.. I was furious, and posted about it here.. I was blasted by many because I dared share my anger here, aqnd named names.
My best ally, was b0b. he said it was NOT a manufacturers forum, but a players forum.

John being the class act that he was, had a new guitar at my door within 2 weeks, and it was and still is, perfect.

btw, I have played a couple of BMI guitars over the years, and know first hand you guys are no nonsense, and would do anything needed to make sure your steels are being played by well satisfied buyers... bob

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Jan 2012 5:02 am

Very interesting thread here. Lots of great input..
My student comes for a lesson at 3 today, I'll see what has transpired, and let everyone know...
btw, he wasn't trying to" save money" by buying online.. he purchased the guitar at full retail from a store that is many hundreds of miles away.

Its really not that big a deal, the guy will eat the price of the fix, but not being able to play your first steel?... Not a good initiation into the learning process.

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Whose problem is this???

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