| Author |
Topic: The endless sweetened tuning saga |
Steve Collins
From:
Alaska, USA
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 10:28 am |
|
I have been playing around with various offsets and 'sweetened' tunings, JI, ET, the works. I have gotten very close to what I believe will work for my ear and my guitar. My question is for you steelers who have owned/played multiple steel instruments. Do you feel the offset tunings you use are chosen for the particular guitar you are playing? In other words does every psg have a tuning it 'prefers'?
I have definitely owned guitars that really 'like' being tuned concert, but sound terrible if they go even a few cents beyond. |
|
|
|
Jake Gathright
From:
Foreman, Arkansas, USA
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 11:45 am
|
|
| I would probably have to take it even a step farther. I beleive it's not just each PSG that has it's own personality and preffered tuning, But each "Pull" or "Change" that particular PSG is capable of. And maybe even more importantly, the adjustment of each change. When someone builds a guitar that will give me the EXACT same kind of pressure, reaction, and "personality" if you will, behind EVERY pedal and lever, I'll sell my pickup truck to buy one. |
|
|
|
John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 11:50 am
|
|
| Yes, I totaly believe every guitar has it's own quirkiness. I own two steels and each one is a little different. One chimes better than the other, one tunes perfectly to the chart, while the other has to tweeked a little bit to sound good to my ears. I don't believe they're all built and respond the same. As long as you know your steel or steels, it shouldn't be a problem. |
|
|
|
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 1:31 pm
|
|
I have only two guitars, one a ShoBud and the other an Emmons, both mid-1970's vintage. My tuning method is the same for both, i.e. I tune everything straight up on the tuner EXCEPT for those notes that are most commonly used as major thirds, these I tune a few cents flat relative to the other intervals.
These flat-tuned intervals on my guitars are:
Strings 5+10 with A+B pedals down (C#)
Strings 3+6 with all pedals up (A)
Strings 4+8 with A pedal down and F lever engaged (F)
Once I have set the raises and lowers accordingly I can quickly tune each string straight up on my tuner with all pedals up EXCEPT strings 3+6 which can be tuned straight up with A+B pedals down. From there the rest is up to me to actually PLAY in tune...
This method works equally well for me with both guitars, although there will always be minor points of difference, eg. the push-pull tends to return from the lowers a bit sharp, a common P/P phenomenon which I have not experienced on the all-pull, and which in any case soon corrects itself as I play. |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 3:46 pm
|
|
Let me put this as delicately as I can:
If a player can HEAR whether he/she is in tune, tuning is NOT AN ISSUE. Just twist the tuners until it sounds right. From that point, the process is simple once you have all open strings and pulls tuned properly. Using an electronic tuner allows the player to record those in tune settings and duplicate them anywhere, regardless of the noise level. You'll also realize that tuning to the gnat's eyelash (less than 1 or 2 cents tolerance) is more or less a waste of time. It will change more than that as soon as you put your hands and bar on the strings.
It doesn't really matter much what the theory is -- many pros, especially those whose playing many of us cut out teeth on, have/had no clue what just or equal tempered or meantone mean. They just know when the dadgummed thang is in tune. THAT'S REALLY ALL THAT MATTERS. If you'd asked Day whether he tuned to just or equal temperament he'd laugh his a$$ off. (You gonna play that thang or just think about how to tune it?)
If the player can't really hear whether the notes are in tune or not, he/she might want to look to the piano or guitar as a better alternative. It is your personal taste that dictates whether you want to 'sweeten' the thirds (or other tones) and it's actually part of how you hear and determine what's 'in tune'.
I can tell you from my experience that I've tuned my tonic and fifth tones (E B) a hair sharp (4-8 cents), major thirds and sixths (G# C# F) a hair flat (4-8 cents) and most everything else straight up. The closer I get to equal temperament (straight up) the fewer tuning conflicts arise but I still can't tolerate a true ET major third. When the hair stands up on the back of my neck I know I'm out of tune.
Does that just confuse things?
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
Chet Wilcox
From:
Illinois, USA (deceased)
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 4:02 pm
|
|
| Larry Bell, In my opinion you are right on the money.Does a guy want to analize a guitr to death or LEARN to play it. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 4:48 pm
|
|
I side with Dave. 3rds and 6s slightly flat. Everything else on the money.
We're not playing solo, usually; everyone around us plays ET.
To answer the OP, though, that scheme sounds slightly differently unsatisfactory on my two guitars.
I'll pass on trying to iron it out, on the grounds that I rarely get to jam with the alpenhorn or bugle. Everyone else plays ET.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Steve Collins
From:
Alaska, USA
|
Posted 7 Dec 2011 11:36 pm
|
|
| thanks guys. and Chet, yes, of course i want to learn to play, but i certainly don't see how having a few points of reference can hurt a dang thing. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 8 Dec 2011 3:39 am
|
|
| Steve Collins wrote: |
| ... i certainly don't see how having a few points of reference can hurt a dang thing. |
I can't see how that can hurt either 
Of the 5 PSGs I have acquired in the later few years, I found that only 1 specimen could be tuned exactly the same way as I have always tuned the PSG I have played for over 30 years, and the easy-tuned "new" PSG happened to be a wery well-built and well-kept equally old version of the same brand as my trusty old one.
In order to find "equal tuning-ground" I ignored what they sounded like in open tuning, and tuned each of them with the bar up the neck - with all pedal and lever combination operated. I find tuning up the neck easy since I use an "A" tuning fork and ear and tune out the most disturbing beats (the JI principle).
Voila ... they all sound equally in tune over the entire playing-range, except for slight deviations in open position and varying degree of "body-drop detuning" when pushing pedals/levers.
At this point I could have noted down or programmed tuners with each PSG's open tuning peculiarities, but since I yet haven't found the use of electronic tuners advantageous in live situations I haven't bothered. As have been pointed out already in this thread: if a player can hear whether he/she is in tune, tuning is not an issue. Detuning can be reduced somewhat by selecting the right strings for the particular instrument, and what's left can be played out.
So, yes, in my experience each PSG to some degree has a "preferred tuning". Once strengths and weaknesses are mapped and the worst flaws corrected, most PSGs can be tuned and played to sound good and in tune with themselves and whatever reasonably accurate tuning others prefer. |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 8 Dec 2011 8:11 am
|
|
I play with one band (Tejano Country) that has keyboards accordion and fiddle. With this band it seems easier to tune strait up ET.
The rest of the time I tune to the Peterson 0E9 and this seems simpler and more forgiving.
It may have been b0b who said the in between or Peterson type tuning can drift a hair and you are still okay.
Tuning to JI it seems to me if it gets a little off it requires a touch up adjustment.
Everyone will settle into a tuning that works for them.
Different bands, different guitars and different situations can effect it.
Sitting around by your self ET sounds pretty bad but when the music starts as mentioned above it works in many situations that JI seems awkward for me.
I guess it depends on what you are used to.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
|
Posted 8 Dec 2011 8:34 am
|
|
I too am in the generally 3rds a little flat and depends on the band/song situation.
For fun go here:
http://www.paulmccartney.com/web/guest/rude-studio
Go to the mixer section and listen to how out of tune the guitars are when soloed... the songs still work. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 10:29 am
|
|
I always start with my "ball park" tuning that sets E B and D at 5 cents sharp, G# C# and D# at 5 cents flat, and F# at 0. I tune the A note (second pedal) to 0 with both pedals down. Same on every E9th guitar I set up.
To tweak it per guitar, I test the Em chord at the 3rd fret, and adjust the first pedal by ear if needed. That's about all.
This tuning method sounds good to my ear and is more fault tolerant than JI or ET, being in between the two. Plus it's easy to remember without a chart because everything is -5, +5 or 0 on the tuner.
By the way, Paul McCartney's guitars at that site don't sound out of tune to me. Not in the slightest.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 10:48 am
|
|
I don't think Larry is right about top players. Most answer with a simple response until you spend some real time with them. To a man every studio level pro player I know has spent considerable time working out there own tuning systems and can describe it in great detail.
The way I look at it is if you can't play a single note scale on one string in tune then it doesn't matter what tuner or tuning system you use. Whatever advice offered about tuning will have no meaning at all until you can hear what in tune is and your hands can do what your ear tells them to.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 1:04 pm
|
|
| Larry Bell wrote: |
Let me put this as delicately as I can:
If a player can HEAR whether he/she is in tune, tuning is NOT AN ISSUE.
|
Isn't that backwards? If you can't hear pitches and intervals, tuning is not an issue. If you can, tuning is an issue.
| Larry Bell wrote: |
Just twist the tuners until it sounds right.
|
Until what sounds right? Unless you tune ET, some intervals will sound good, and some so bad that you can't use them. The "issue" is the choice of which intervals you want to use, and which you choose to avoid.
| Larry Bell wrote: |
...tuning to the gnat's eyelash (less than 1 or 2 cents tolerance) is more or less a waste of time. It will change more than that as soon as you put your hands and bar on the strings.
|
Yes, it will change as you play. That's why many of us choose a fault-tolerant tuning such as meantone.
| Larry Bell wrote: |
It doesn't really matter much what the theory is -- many pros, especially those whose playing many of us cut out teeth on, have/had no clue what just or equal tempered or meantone mean. They just know when the dadgummed thang is in tune. THAT'S REALLY ALL THAT MATTERS. If you'd asked Day whether he tuned to just or equal temperament he'd laugh his a$$ off.
|
In my one experience sitting around a hotel room with Jimmy Day, I found him to be very much concerned with temperament. He wasn't laughing his ass off about it. He asked Tom Morrell "How can I get my F# string in tune with the B string and the C#?" They both seemed to think it was impossible, and you can do no better than to choose one interval (B-F# or C#-F#) and tune that one so it sounds good, and then never play the other interval. Jimmy had found that he wanted to use both intervals in his playing. This is the first step toward moving beyond the simple "tune the beats out" approach that leads only to just intonation and all of its problems. I was surprised to see that neither of these great players had really begun to analyze the problem.
I read that Jerry Byrd had struggled with the similar issue of the D string on his C6 and C diatonic tunings. Obviously Jerry preferred the sound of very just intervals, but instead of tuning D in a just interval with either G or A, he declared that the D string cannot be tuned correctly on C6, so he didn't use a D string. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 5:40 pm
|
|
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| He [Jimmy Day] asked Tom Morrell "How can I get my F# string in tune with the B string and the C#?" They both seemed to think it was impossible, and you can do no better than to choose one interval (B-F# or C#-F#) and tune that one so it sounds good, and then never play the other interval. Jimmy had found that he wanted to use both intervals in his playing. This is the first step toward moving beyond the simple "tune the beats out" approach that leads only to just intonation and all of its problems. I was surprised to see that neither of these great players had really begun to analyze the problem. |
Surprises me to...
A two-pitch change on the B strings - two pitches for the raises to C# - makes it possible to tune out beats for both B-F# and C#-F#. It is a pity PSG builders still haven't introduced "two-pitch change" options for those of us who prefer to tune in accordance with the JI principles. |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 6:12 pm
|
|
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
A two-pitch change on the B strings - two pitches for the raises to C# - makes it possible to tune out beats for both B-F# and C#-F#. |
Do you mean a small pitch change on the F# strings? ..so that F# is a few cents lower lower when the B string is raised to C#? That solves one of the biggest problems of JI, and some steel players have been doing that since before I started playing. I do that on some of my guitars. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 7:06 pm
|
|
First and foremost I mean a mechanism/compensator/half-stop for making a small change to the pitch of the 5th and 10th (E9) string when they are raised to C# at the same time as the 6th string (and on my PSGs the 3d string) gets lowered to F#. A mechanism/compensator will most likely be complicated, but I have had one and so know it can be done. A type of hard "half-stop" near the regular stop for the B to C# raise will be simpler, and playable, so that may be an option.
The F# on 1st and 7th string must also be "pitched" a little to go with the 5th and 10th string raise, but that is already a pretty regular JI-compensator included by many PSGs players. On its own this compensator doesn't solve the problem well enough, but it is a start. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 7:28 pm
|
|
I think an endless series of compensation would come out of B0b's idea of the servomechanical steel. It'd be easy-peasy to tell the First string to go one place if only the C pedal is pushed (I have a rock and roll lick hitting the 4-1 unison), another value if the A+B pedals hit together, and another value still if A+F, and one more if the 2nd string drops to D.
One could have EVERY combination struck to zero beats.
I'll rig magnetos on Bach's grave 
OTOH, he might actually endorse the idea.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Hans Holzherr
From:
MĂĽnchenbuchsee, Switzerland
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 9:22 pm
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| We're not playing solo, usually; everyone around us plays ET. |
That's only true if no harmony singing and no fiddle is involved which are both rooted in the JT system.
Hans |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 9:57 pm
|
|
The fiddles and voices can choose. I won't, when I sing, throw a JI third if I hear one of the instruments playing an ET third in the same octave; I'll join the third already there. Pretty sure a fiddler would do the same. competing values for the same note sounds like a bad idea.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Scott Hay
From:
Portland, OR / Yucca Valley, CA USA
|
Posted 9 Dec 2011 10:55 pm
|
|
I'm a fan of b0b's method. I find my two steels are a touch different. When I got the guitars I focused on accurately tuning them the same values every time (either a boss tu12 or Peterson). After awhile I got to know the guitar better and got comfortable experimenting with "corrections" towards what I felt was "in tune". After enough experimenting I've settled on sweet spots I'm happy with and just remember what gets tweaked where from my "base" starting tuning reference on the different guitars.
I think they way you go with this ends up dictating "your voice" quite a bit, which is cool.
Of course, all of this becomes in vain when I play poorly....
Another fail safe method, should I be called out on my intonational preferences (dancers... think they're so smart), is suggest they drink a bit more and check back with me.
Of the two methods, I find that the later works like a charm on both guitars and is easiest on me. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 10 Dec 2011 12:40 am
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| One could have EVERY combination struck to zero beats. |
Mmmm, if body-drop detuning and hysteresis is also brought under control.
| Lane Gray wrote: |
I'll rig magnetos on Bach's grave
OTOH, he might actually endorse the idea. |
Probably. |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 10 Dec 2011 7:46 am
|
|
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
Isn't that backwards? If you can't hear pitches and intervals, tuning is not an issue. If you can, tuning is an issue. |
An issue to WHOM? For someone listening it is an issue if the guitar is noticeably out of tune.
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
Until what sounds right? Unless you tune ET, some intervals will sound good, and some so bad that you can't use them. The "issue" is the choice of which intervals you want to use, and which you choose to avoid. |
And that's how it was dealt with before the electronic tuner made measurement possible -- along with micro-bar slants, and other techniques. They would tune their most used pedal and lever combinations and make them sound in tune to their ear and avoid what they couldn't make sound right. I rarely heard Jimmy Day sound out of tune -- maybe after a few adult beverages but that doesn't count.
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
In my one experience sitting around a hotel room with Jimmy Day, I found him to be very much concerned with temperament. He wasn't laughing his ass off about it. He asked Tom Morrell "How can I get my F# string in tune with the B string and the C#?" They both seemed to think it was impossible, and you can do no better than to choose one interval (B-F# or C#-F#) and tune that one so it sounds good, and then never play the other interval. Jimmy had found that he wanted to use both intervals in his playing. This is the first step toward moving beyond the simple "tune the beats out" approach that leads only to just intonation and all of its problems. I was surprised to see that neither of these great players had really begun to analyze the problem. |
You just MADE my POINT. Players of yesteryear certainly recognized problems inherent in tuning JI to a tuning fork but they didn't study the technical aspects and had no real way (other than counting beats) to tune any other way reliably and quickly. I never said he didn't see the problem -- just that he (or Morrell or Billy Bowman or most of the icons from the early days of pedal steel) hadn't schooled himself on what equal temperament or just intonation WAS. It was very difficult to tune to anything other than JI with a tuning fork and harmonics.
From the conversations I had with Day, I'd say that he was not one who would not be interested in the mathematics or theory -- just in what works. I didn't intend to stir up a hornet's nest.
Actually, by the mid-to-late 70s many players had discovered the 1st/7th string compensator which solved the problem that dogged them most. That doesn't mean they knew what ET or JI or meantone was all about or even cared to know the details.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 10 Dec 2011 8:03 am
|
|
| Every time I think that maybe "I've gotten there." on tuning/playing-intonation issues, I discover something else that I need to grapple with. For me, your thread title is correct - it is an endless work-in-progress to play this sucker in tune (or to play it at all, ha!). I've been focusing more on jazz guitar the last year or two, and it has screwed around with my ear. I gotta get back to the steel guitar woodshed. |
|
|
|
Robert Cates
From:
Maine, USA
|
Posted 10 Dec 2011 11:19 am tuning threads
|
|
Wait a minute..I think that there is a song in there somewhere
Tuning threads and tuning needles can not change this heart of mine.....................
So I'll hang my head in sorrow while you play this tuning game
Wait..did someone already write this song?
Darn it
I love these tuning threads
Bob |
|
|
|
