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Topic: Amp builders: safety and certification? |
Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 8:39 am |
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I was talking to the electronics/amp tech at the music shop I work at today. He was saying that he wouldn't allow someone to use an amp I've built (I've made and sold a few to friends) to be used in a club where he was doing sound. Unless I got them certified. He went on about 'well, if the club burned down, 'they'd' go after you/us etc. He also said that he won't allow anything without 'the sticker' on stage, no exceptions.
He's an electronics engineer, and very knowledgeable about tube amps. I asked him if my amps would pass the process, and he said yes, with some work to do.
Ravings, or reasonable? I've seen folks on this forum selling their amps, seen photos of forum members' amps in use on stages etc... I understand the liability issues to do with someone opening an amp up and licking a filter cap, but what about general usage and safety? UL or CSA Certification? Anyone here submitted amps for certification? How long did it take, costs, etc? |
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Rich Hlaves
From:
Wildomar, California, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 9:13 am
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Well I guess he won't be doing sound for me. I own personal builds and a Fox 4-10 5D6B.
Strictly from a liability standpoint I suppose he's correct. But....depends on the builder. There is some junk out there for sure but most of what I see is an improvement over what was built commercially in the '50s-70s. Better grounding, components, fused B+ and filiments, etc. "Safer" than my '67 Pro Reverb was until this past spring when I broke down & put a grounded power cord on it.
I've seen your builds in previous posts Marc. You can put them on a stage with me any day.
I suppose we are breaking some sort of law/regulation by building amps and selling them without UL, CE and other certs. I don't see the liability as a huge risk in my case. No more or less than a factory amp that I was the last to service. I'm proud of my builds and put my name on them.
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On man....let the smoke out of another one. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 10:54 am
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That's a load of hogwash, Marc, and here's why...
The primary concern addressed by UL testing and listing is about how the AC mains power is handled and how a given design mitigates hazards due to component failure, grounding issues and surges in line voltage. Clearly, any guitar amp can present such hazards, but for the most part these are hazards only to the person using it.
As far as actual legal concerns, the National Electrical Code rightly has stringent requirements for wiring and equipment used in theaters, stages, houses of worship and other places of public assembly, and classifies "portable stage equipment" in general under article 520, which requires only that the energized parts of such equipment (IF THEY CONTAIN HIGH VOLTAGES): "...shall be placed within a substantial enclosure...enclosures of wood shall be completely lined with sheet metal of not less than No.24 MSG and shall be well-galvanized or otherwise properly coated to prevent corrosion...construction shall be such that no current-carrying part will be exposed...."
NEC Article 640 covers "sound recording and similar equipment," which includes public address and musical systems. As regards guitar amplifiers, this article simply requires that the external AC and speaker cables be of an appropriate class and length, that all signal jacks and other electrical connections to the device be properly marked, and that each such unit has an appropriate, integral over-current protection device.
Finally, NEC Article 725 covers remote-control, signaling and power-limited equipment, which includes audio amplifiers of all types. The relevant requirements listed are that "...circuits be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner..." and that all conductors used in the device be adequate for the maximum current that they are expected to carry.
The bottom line is that there is NO legal requirement whatsoever that requires UL or any other listing for equipment to be used in a place of public assembly, provided it meets the general standards of the National Electrical Code. The law requires no license to build, no rating, no testing, no certification, no registration, nothing but simply that the item is built smart and safe.
On the other hand, Marc, your pal had better not be allowing any of those orange extension cords or household zip-styl extension cords on his stage as the NEC expressly forbids their use in ALL public venues, no if's and's or but's. Same for the green ones and the yellow ones and the blue ones, if the cable does not have an S, SO, SOO, SOW (or other appropriate rating, see my follow-up post below) CLEARLY STAMPED ON THE SIDE OF THE CASING it is illegal to use it in a place of public assembly due to its inability to withstand "severe service." That being said, touring Broadway shows use them all the time, illegal or not, and NOBODY ever tells them the show can't set up on "their" stage.
Essentially this guy's rap is just a clever way for him to let you know in technical terms that he's a far bigger ass than you ever may have imagined previously.
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 11 Nov 2011 11:27 am; edited 6 times in total |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 10:59 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| your pal had better not be allowing any of those orange extension cords on his stage as the NEC expressly forbids their use in all public venues. Same for the green ones and the yellow ones and the blue ones, |
What color should I use? |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 11:25 am
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NEC requires that all temporary stage wiring utilize cords rated for "hard" or "extra-hard" use. Such cables must bear a continuous imprint with the number of conductors and usage classification on the jacket, and should be one of the following types:
G, PPE, S, SC, SCE, SCT,, SE, SEO, SEOO, SO, SOO, SOW, ST, STO, STOO, or W.
Cables with a classification mark that begins with "SJ" are rated "junior severe" and are permitted for use on stages, with some limitations, and never for supplying lighting instruments or other high-current appliances.
It is virtually impossible to find such cables ready-made at a retail outlet, one must buy the cable and connectors and build it oneself, which is a whole other safety discussion, and no doubt the reason so many "illegal" cords find their way into theaters and such...  |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 4:11 pm
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| Thanks, guys! Off to my local now to play Crazy Horse tunes through my, turned all the way up! 14 watts of mushy joy. |
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Johnny Thomasson
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 4:52 pm Re: Amp builders: safety and certification?
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| Marc Jenkins wrote: |
| He's an electronics engineer, and very knowledgeable about tube amps. |
Sounds like he's got some ego issues to go along with his other credentials. Why do sound guys always think they know 100x more than guys who actually know how to use the equipment (play), and have done so for years/decades?
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Johnny Thomasson |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 5:06 pm
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| Quote: |
| Why do sound guys always think they know 100x more than guys who actually know how to use the equipment (play), and have done so for years/decades? |
As far as I can tell it comes of getting a paying job in the field, looking around and seeing very few other folks with paying jobs in the field, and reaching the false conclusion that they must then the only ones who know enough to have a paying job in the field.
This conclusion is false in that there are very few such "paying" jobs and unless you are on contract with one of a few highly successful AND truly thoughtful artists all such jobs pay as little as possible, with as few benefits as possible, and the hours and working conditions pretty much suck. Most folks with enough smarts and experience to really know what's going on also have the skills and intelligence to go find more lucrative and/or less pretentious work to do and leave the club sound gigs to the bottom feeders and oxygen bandits....
Last edited by Dave Grafe on 11 Nov 2011 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 5:15 pm Re: Amp builders: safety and certification?
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| Johnny Thomasson wrote: |
| Marc Jenkins wrote: |
| He's an electronics engineer, and very knowledgeable about tube amps. |
Sounds like he's got some ego issues to go along with his other credentials. Why do sound guys always think they know 100x more than guys who actually know how to use the equipment (play), and have done so for years/decades? |
agreed. Generally things like this are spoken by people who contribute nothing to society. If he built his own amps, he would be singing a different tune.
In fact, some home made amps are MUCH safer to gig with than amps from the 50's and 60's with that dreaded ground switch and "death" cap.
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Milkmansound.com |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 11 Nov 2011 5:57 pm
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| Quote: |
| Thanks, guys! Off to my local now to play Crazy Horse tunes through my, turned all the way up! 14 watts of mushy joy. |
Aren't 14 watt amps illegal? Better ask the sound dude. 
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 12 Nov 2011 4:45 am not so fast !
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I know several sound engineers who are VERY knowledgeable (sp ?). I think the original poster was talking about an electronic engineer. Two different worlds there.....
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 12 Nov 2011 9:27 am
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| This guy is both of those! |
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Johnny Thomasson
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2011 9:34 am
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| Dustin Rigsby wrote: |
| I know several sound engineers who are VERY knowledgeable (sp ?). I think the original poster was talking about an electronic engineer. Two different worlds there..... |
Dustin, I'm sure there are. It just seems like a disproportionately large percentage of "sound techs", or at least among the ones I've worked with, were obnoxious, stubborn, know-it-all, "my way or the highway" types who really didn't know much. The truth was, they were just "wanna-be, but couldn't carry the water" musicians who fell back on the next best thing available to them... running sound. I know there are true professionals out there who really know what they're doing, and can make a band sound its very best while making things a bunch easier for the guys on stage. I've worked with a few of those too, but my point is, the ratio of "type A" to "type B" is way, way skewed to the left.
Agreed, there is night and day difference between a sound tech and an electrical engineer. But the latter does not qualify one to be the former! It sounds like the guy the OP referred to claims expertise in both fields. A really good sound tech is a huge asset, but those guys seem to be the exception, and really hard to find. At least in my own experience. With regard to the guy the OP referred to, if he thinks a "certified" 60's Fender amp, original, is "safer" than the boutique tube amps guys are building today, he doesn't know squat. Either as a sound tech OR an electrical engineer. But he certainly isn't lacking in self confidence.
All IMHO, of course.
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Johnny Thomasson |
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