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Topic: What are the effects of "keyhead" string? |
Curt Langston
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Posted 5 Oct 2011 2:08 pm |
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Just as the title questions:
(1)Are the overtones created by a keyed guitar useful?
(2)How does the keyhead string vibration effect the playing field of strings?
(3)Is energy transfer involved between the two different parts of the string?
(4)Is sustain increased or decreased in proportion to the length of the keyhead string? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 5 Oct 2011 5:46 pm
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I haven't noticed any real effects of/from the keyhead strings. They are too high pitched to generate anything but a slight "noise", and whether the string-lengths past the nut are dampened out or not the PSG's sound-creating properties seem to stay between the bridge and the nut on all my "keyhead'ed" PSGs, despite the fact that the soundboard extends and excite vibrations under the keyhead.
The fact that all my "keyhead'ed" PSGs sustain better/longer than my keyless, has IMO nothing to do with keyhead vs. keyless. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 5 Oct 2011 7:05 pm
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| Quote: |
| The fact that all my "keyhead'ed" PSGs sustain better/longer than my keyless, has IMO nothing to do with keyhead vs. keyless. |
Thanks for the input, Georg.
It would seem to me that if it were possible to have one end of the string terminate at the center point of the changer finger, and the other end at the center, but not beyond the crest of the nut, there would be less vibrational energy absorbed or lost, and therefore result in longer sustain. At least this has been my experience. I believe Ed Packard built a steel that has this concept(or somewhat) in use.
Interesting concept! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 5 Oct 2011 8:23 pm
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I am of the opinion that if the bridge, and nut, don't/can't "give in" and vibrate with the string, the instrument will sustain for longer. For an "electric" instrument this will mean it will have no body-tone, so all that will be amplified is the string vibration.
Whether there's any string-length past the bridge, and/or nut, or not, will then not play a role since those overshooting lengths can't/won't be excited - the vibration will die on the bridge and nut.
Since an instrument with such "stoic" bridge and nut is pretty hard/impractical to build - and the pure string-sound it would produce probably would not sound all that good to most humans - it may be reasonable to assume that the shorter the overshooting string-length on a steel, the better.
- I am not so sure of that, since a very short, high-pitch, string-length (as on a keyless) will react instantly and may well function as a "vibration-brake" in some constructions ... can't get around the effect a real instrument's exact construction has on string-vibration.
- Longer overshooting string-lengths may have that "vibration-brake" effect too, but with the "chaos" of vibrations under the keyhead, longer reaction-time, and the varying lengths and lower pitches, the overshooting string(s) with the "sympathetic" pitch(es) may better cancel out those with the "non-sympathetic" pitches, ending up just producing slight "noise" between themselves without much, if any, effect on the tone-producing part of the string - beyond making the tone even less "pure" and more "musical" to our ears. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 6 Oct 2011 9:51 am
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| Quote: |
| I am of the opinion that if the bridge, and nut, don't/can't "give in" and vibrate with the string, the instrument will sustain for longer. For an "electric" instrument this will mean it will have no body-tone, so all that will be amplified is the string vibration. |
Good point....
What if the bridge and nut were allowed to resonate into the sounding board, but the excess keyhead string was eliminated?
How would that effect body tone and sustain? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2011 2:15 pm
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| If you've got a good tuner,,,, throw a towel over the strings on the neck, and use your tuner to see what the strings in the keyhead read. See if any of the ones you can read offer anything you'd like to hear. On my ShoBuds, they sure don't. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 6 Oct 2011 2:26 pm
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| That's a good idea John. It would be interesting to know if the different frequency of the keyhead strings could cause a chaotic opposition/hinderance to the playing strings...... |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 6 Oct 2011 4:36 pm
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Putting a towel over the neck means "no string vibrations = no output from the PU", so where do you measure then? Such a way to test doesn't make sense since only sound from the PU can be amplified/recorded/measured.
As a matter of fact: I did register/measure feedback from the overshooting string-lengths on my preferred PSG - a Dekley S10, before and after I modified it. Strings were of course left free to vibrate over the PU, and I also performed tests with the bar at various positions up the neck. I had to know a lot about how vibrations spread through that instrument in order to evaluate my own modification.
- Before: if the overshooting string-lengths got excited, picked inside the keyhead - not easy  , they did produce tones which I registered through the PU on a scope and by ear. This means there had to be some sympathetic vibrations in the strings over the PU ... the wrong way in my case since I picked on the wrong side, but vibrations go both ways. Most of these vibrations were transferred via the top-plate/soundboard to the bridge/changer, not across the nut-rollers, so they did go both ways even if strings were dampened behind the bar. So, the overshooting string-lengths did seem to play a very tiny role in that instrument's overall tone.
- After: exciting the strings behind the nut - at/inside the keyhead, did not produce audible or measurable tones in the strings over/through the PU. I interpreted this to mean that the overshooting string-lengths no longer played any role in the instrument's tone. The thing is though, that the Dekley with its thin soundboard and (now) heavy neck attached near the keyhead end and not near/at the bridge (the modification), produces quite strong sub-harmonic vibrations in the keyhead area and these sub-harmonics are perfectly in sync with the played notes and contributes to the tone and sustain. That, IMO, is the specific construction at play, not the overshooting string-lengths. |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2011 5:47 pm Duplex scale
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I think it does affect the tone. Look at a high end grand piano. The treble bridge has a duplex scale. The string end opposite the capo (nut) has a tunable bridge to add to the overtone, sustain and volume of the vibration. On the Emmons push-pulls with Kluson tuners strings 5 and 6 have a perfect harmonic several octaves above the speaking length. I asked Ron Lashley Sr. if this was by accident or on purpose. He just grinned! I have also heard that many guitarists believe Jimi Hendrix had a unique sound because he strung the strat backwards, creating a different overtone.
Doug
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 3:23 am Re: Duplex scale
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Last edited by Jason Hull on 22 Apr 2012 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jason Hull
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Jason Hull
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 5:03 am
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Georg,
I guess I should have mentioned that my tuner had a mic for tuning acoustic instruments. My steels weren't even plugged in. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 7:58 am
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OK John. Mine have too low sensitivity for stable acoustic readings from my PSGs.
I am still not sure if what you can pick up acoustically from a PSG will tell much about what it produces via the PU - what will be amplified, being it harmonics or noise. It may help pinpointing active or passive points and areas, and myself I use a stethoscope, or contact-PUs connected to oscilloscope and frequency counter, for checking up on those things. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 8 Oct 2011 12:14 pm
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Doug:
| Quote: |
| I think it does affect the tone. Look at a high end grand piano. The treble bridge has a duplex scale. The string end opposite the capo (nut) has a tunable bridge to add to the overtone, sustain and volume of the vibration. On the Emmons push-pulls with Kluson tuners strings 5 and 6 have a perfect harmonic several octaves above the speaking length. I asked Ron Lashley Sr. if this was by accident or on purpose. He just grinned! I have also heard that many guitarists believe Jimi Hendrix had a unique sound because he strung the strat backwards, creating a different overtone. |
On the Emmons push-pulls with Kluson tuners strings 5 and 6 have a perfect harmonic several octaves above the speaking length. I asked Ron Lashley Sr. if this was by accident or on purpose. He just grinned!
What kind of a grin was it? 
He certainly could not have calculated any harmonics with all of the varying keyhead string tensions and lengths!
A Grand piano does not pull and lower strings as a pedal steel does.
Gene Fields had some input regarding overtones and harmonics:
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| "We also make a keyless guitar. I find the keyless to be superior when referring to string breakage, pedal action, tuning accuracy, and many other points. However, this has been discussed extensively throughout the industry as well as on the internet. I will not argue those points except to say don't knock it until you try it. I will respond to the claim that keyless tuning destroys enhancing harmonics. There are 10 out of tune harmonics generated on any instrument with a conventional key head. These harmonics vary with different string gauges, different key head lengths, and different tunings. They also vary every time a pedal is pushed. There is no way for all of these varying out of tune harmonics to enhance, especially when relativity changes with every movement of the bar." |
(emphasis mine)
Georg:
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| - Longer overshooting string-lengths may have that "vibration-brake" effect too, but with the "chaos" of vibrations under the keyhead, longer reaction-time, and the varying lengths and lower pitches, the overshooting string(s) with the "sympathetic" pitch(es) may better cancel out those with the "non-sympathetic" pitches, ending up just producing slight "noise" between themselves without much, if any, effect on the tone-producing part of the string - beyond making the tone even less "pure" and more "musical" to our ears. |
Good points georg!
Chaotic, vibrational clash. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2011 12:36 pm
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"There are 10 out of tune harmonics generated on any instrument with a conventional key head. "
This is basically what I found on my ShoBud, although I could only get decent readings on strings 4,5,6, and 7. I recall one note being about one third of the way between A# and B. Guitar sounded great anyway! |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 7:25 am
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| I have had guitars sent to me to repair the "odd noise coming from the 5th string" that turned out to be the harmonic that was easily dampened by simply putting a short length of plastic shrink tubing on that section of the string. Jay Dee Maness does this routinely on what I believe to be his 5th and 6th strings. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 9:03 am
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I find those notes to be irrelevant, really. I mean, if you wanted to do the "real test" you'd build both a keyed and keyless guitar otherwise identical, then hook it up to Ed Packard's measuring devices, to determine... What? Will it change the way you play... I have had some fun in C6th with the Sonny Landreth techniques of picking strings on the other side of the bar, at the 5th, 7th, 12th, 19th and 24th fret. The 5th, 12th and 24th fret positions give you a tonic C6th and the 7th and 19th fret give you a fifth up. You get some cool ghost tones and with pedals to give you a F7 and G6 (at the 12th fret), there's room to play actual music - in the dog whistle range.  The biggest obstacle to making something musical from is that it's devilishly uncomfortable to play with your arms crossed. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 10:25 am
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A real test would be to cushion/dampen just the strings inside the keyhead - make them as dead and/or high-pitched as in a keyless, and listen to the amplified, and non-amplified, instrument while it is being played for real up and down the neck, and compare with what comes out with non-cushioned/non-dampened keyhead strings.
Usually one can't draw conclusions further than to that particular instrument, as keyhead construction, overshooting string-lengths, body-vibrations and just about all else that affects the impact keyhead strings has on tone, vary quite a bit from instrument to instrument.
Some amplified or non-amplified "stray" sounds in a particular instrument may disturb one player and not another. Some may prefer the "cushioned" sound and some may prefer the "free" sound, and some won't hear the difference or think it matters.
If a player isn't quite comfortable with what he hears while playing his own instrument, he may end up not playing his best and - right or wrong - blame it on the instrument. If he then does not take the time to figure out what's going on, he may end up paying thousands of $ in a gamble to find the "perfect" instrument even if the "near-perfect" one has been there all along but in need of a check-up/tune-up and a few cents "putty"  (or whatever) in the right places (which may be on the keyhead string-lengths) in order to become "the perfect instrument" for that player.
To me it definitely makes sense to search for and tune in/out what one likes or dislikes tonally in an otherwise good instrument, instead of trying to "hit it right next time" by acquiring a different instrument. Some players can do non-destructive "search and tune" themselves, while others will need more competent help and assistance. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 10:32 am
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Georg,
I remember seeing a local guy. many, many years ago, who had taken a "medium" rubber band, put it around the 2nd string tuning key shaft, and wound it through the strings across to the 9th string tuner shaft. The rubber band wasn't taut, but the way it was woven through the strings made it act like a shock absorber. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 11:34 am
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| The rubber band wasn't taut, but the way it was woven through the strings made it act like a shock absorber. |
Good input guys!
I wonder if the shock or vibration of the strings in the keyhead are helpful, or harmful to the sustain/tone of the playing field strings?
Are we losing energy/sustain through the keyhead strings? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 11:49 am
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John, that's the idea - absorb unwanted/uncontrollable vibrations.
Curt, as indicated by several here: vibrating keyhead strings-lengths may make certain notes/chords sound sour and or different from other tones/chords, making the instrument sound less even up and down the neck.
I use foam, pieces of rubber and clamps - and putty - to introduce temporary alterations and work out what sounds best to me. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 12:38 pm
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I will emphasis that if you (anyone) try to narrow it down to "strings in the keyhead are helpful, or harmful, to the sustain/tone", you (anyone) are focusing too much on one, isolated, factor. I am confident that on some steels it may be helpful, on other steels it may be harmful, and on some steels vibrating strings in the keyhead, or not, makes no difference. That's because of material(s) used, the way they are built, where and how well/hard screws/bolts are tightened, etc, etc.
OTOH: writing off "strings in the keyhead" as not being a potential factor in overall tone/sustain on many steels, would be equally narrow-minded.
My very personal opinion, and experience, is that there should not be any, or very little, vibration in the strings in the keyhead if we want even tone/sustain up and down the neck - regardless of steel-brand/-model. Since I am not particularly fond of keyless designs for a number of reasons, I try to make sure those extra string-lengths do not contribute anything to tone/sustain. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 1:15 pm
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| I am confident that on some steels it may be helpful, on other steels it may be harmful, and on some steels vibrating strings in the keyhead, or not, makes no difference. |
What would be a good example of vibratings strings in the keyhead being helpful?
Helpful in what way? IE: aiding in sustain, or hindering sustain.
The changer end allows virtually zero chaotic vibration. If a person were able to have zero overhang on both ends, what would be the effect on sustain?
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| I use foam, pieces of rubber and clamps - and putty - to introduce temporary alterations and work out what sounds best to me. |
Ok. Then may I presume that if you had your wish, you would want there to be zero vibration in the keyhead? |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 1:32 pm Overtones
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The Steel play bar acts just like a nut, only moveable. Play your guitar without muting behind the bar. You will hear the duplex tones. It can be useful in some positions and detrimental in others. The keyhead overtones are there and although more audible acoustically are still part of the sound.
Doug
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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