Nashville Number Minor Keys

Christopher Wray · Post by **Christopher Wray** » 20 Sep 2011 2:17 pm

I've always looked at minor keys in there relative major key when notating, on a gig, or in the studio. I thought that was common but one of my friends was telling me he doesn't do that. He always treats the tonic as the 1. I did a little research and found that he might be in the majority. An example I found was Tom Petty's "Last Dance with Mary Jane". The progression is Am - G - Dm - Am. So he would look at that as a i-VII-iv-i. I would have looked at that as vi-V-ii-vi. How do you all approach minor keys?

Thanks,
Christopher

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 20 Sep 2011 2:26 pm

Same as you Christopher. Relative major.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 20 Sep 2011 2:29 pm

For me, it depends on the melody and tonal center of the particular tune. If and when it comes around to any of the other chords (4's 1's, etc) and they sound like they're obviously a 4 or a 1, then I'll treat it as though it's a 6 minor...since it'll most likely sound like a 6 minor when we come back around to it.

If it's an obvious minor tune - as in "The Thrill Is Gone" for example, then I'll do it the other way, mentioning somewhere along the line that we're in a minor vibe for this song.

The majority of times, it's the relative minor.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 20 Sep 2011 8:08 pm

Christopher, I would chart the progression you stated as being in the key of C Major. Am, G, Dm, Am would be charted as 6m 5 2m and 6m.
Jerry

Butch Gardner · Post by **Butch Gardner** » 20 Sep 2011 8:36 pm

It will be interesting to see where this thread goes. It is one thing to think in terms of relative keys, but to chart a song in something other than its natural key.....I don't know about that.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Sep 2011 8:43 pm

I'm trying to figure out how you're getting Am - G - Dm - Am for Last Dance with Mary Jane. That D does not feel minor to me - you can hear the guitar periodically accentuate the first-string F# (major 3rd) on the open-position D chord, other times it's left ambiguous by omitting the 3rd altogether or suspending the second.

The way I would notate this depends on whether or not it feels like the progression is based on Ionian, or some other modal scale. To me, this verse (and tune in general) seems more modal with the root on the Am, so I'd notate it i, bVII, IV, i. Then for the chorus, it moves to Em - Amaj; A feels like the I, so it's v, I, with a Gmaj (V) segue back to the chorus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pHM-o2_Dk

As Skip says, I'd definitely notate the tonic of a minor blues as the i - again, it feels more modal to me.

This is sort of like the discussion about Sweet Home Alabama, which goes D - C - G. Some people view the key as D (thinking more modally), and others insist that it has to be G. I'd notate a chord chart in D, but I suppose there's an argument to make that if you're gonna view it from an Ionian scale point of view, strict musical notation would use G. But I don't think strictly in terms of major scales - I was brought up on the blues, at least on guitar.

YMMV - I think as long as everybody's clear on what convention will be used, it shouldn't be a problem.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 20 Sep 2011 9:58 pm

Christopher Wray wrote:I've always looked at minor keys in there relative major key...How do you all approach minor keys?

I tend to think in relative major too. I would write it just as you did, if the chord was D minor. That bluesy bending riff at the end does not sound quite right over D minor though. I use a D (major) harmonica on this song, which is typically used for blues in A. The chords are Am G and D. The D is not dominant but implied by the melody note C. This might imply a major key of G, which is also the turnaround chord. The verse melody is mostly just C and A. I dont use the number system really, but I might write it as ii I V in the key of G. The chorus chords go from Em to A, so I might use vi and II. Its all relative as long as it is understood what letter = 1. The song hinges around the A minor chord in the verses and the A dominant in the chorus, so it switches key regardless. I just picked those numbers because they are close to I ii IV V7 vi, which are easy to digest.

Clete

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 20 Sep 2011 11:40 pm

i can dig relatin' to minor chords as relatives
some tunes are using them as such (relatives) so the I (root) might be elsewhere

in my case, if the tune is in Am then it's the I (root)
if it goes to C, i'll write bIII
if it goes to F, i'll write #V
if it goes to Dm, : IVm
if it goes to E7+ : V7+
& so on
(i don't use the nashV numbers cause i'm not used to them & find them confusing w: the numbers of the chords
that's why i prefer the roman numerals)

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 21 Sep 2011 7:04 am

Political correctness aside I've seen a lot of charts and they seem to vary in symbolism and a lot of liberties are taken with the Nss'veel' numbers.
I personal would write a Am - G - Dm - Am if it is in the key of Am as 1m-b7-4m-1m which clearly defines the the key and doesn't force me to think in terms of the Cmajor scale.
A player might want to mix scales and play an Am Dorian which is a Gmaj scale over the Am and G then the Cmaj scale over the Dm to th Am.

Christopher Wray · Post by **Christopher Wray** » 21 Sep 2011 9:43 am

Great responses!! Thank you gents. It's very interesting to hear the different approaches. I'm not really concerned with whether or not the changes are correct for that specific song. I shouldn't have even listed a song title because the concept is all I was interested in. That song was being discussed on the Gear Page in the same context so I just pulled it from there. Thanks again!

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 21 Sep 2011 10:39 am

I'm just glad you didn't ask about "The House of the Rising Sun"...

Bryan Daste · Post by **Bryan Daste** » 21 Sep 2011 11:41 am

When I'm writing NNS charts for myself, I use the relative major. It's just easier to look at and think about, to me.

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 21 Sep 2011 12:57 pm

I think it could go either way ..

For example.. a tune like "Summertime"
with a verse simply written as Am Dm E
While it is probably written in the key of C
On a chart, I am thinking 1- 4- 5
not 6- 2- 3

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 21 Sep 2011 6:23 pm

I agree completely...Key of C...AM-6, G-5. Dm-2...etc..
Using a tonic Minor you'll run in to numerous "accidental majors", as well as other chord forms...
Say Am is tonic....Whats the 2 chord???...Bm?..BM?...
Personally I think the majority of people that THINK they know the number system...Don't at all...

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 22 Sep 2011 5:16 am

Mickey Adams wrote: Say Am is tonic....Whats the 2 chord???...Bm?..BM?

Bdim7?

I'm with you.

My mind "gets" 1234567 as Major, minor, minor, Major, Major, minor, dim. Just the easiest way for me, and NV #s are supposed to be easy! (i.e., keeping a blind eye toward modes and relative minors).

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 22 Sep 2011 6:57 am

Say Am is tonic....Whats the 2 chord???

it's a B
does'nt say whether it's a minor or major
so which one you want ?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 22 Sep 2011 7:05 am

Mickey Adams wrote:Say Am is tonic....Whats the 2 chord???...Bm?..BM?...

Isn't that a theory question, rather than a "Nashville numbers" question?

In a Nashville numbers chart, if Am is the tonic, if the chart says "2" that's B major. If the chart says "2m" it's B minor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that in the "Nashville number system" chords are simply named individually by their position in the scale of the key* and their chord type, regardless of their theoretical function in the progression, and each (Arabic) number is assumed to be a major chord unless it has a suffix, such as m for minor, 7 for seventh, + for augmented, M7 for major seventh, etc.

Number charts using Roman numerals and/or basing chord designations on systematic application of diatonic theory are a different beast from Nashville number charts, which simply provide easy-to-read "play this chord now" information that can be used in any key.

*(Scale position taking the major scale as basis--that is, counting from the root of the tonic, regardless of which chord quality the tonic is,
1, b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, b6, 6, b7, 7 )

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Sep 2011 7:28 am

Charting using the NNS......All numbers are major chords unless notated different, no exceptions.........

If the song is in E minor, most chart riders will use G major as the tonal center for the chart......Making the root chord a 6 minor......

Paul

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 22 Sep 2011 7:34 am

Well, if anybody knows how the Nashville number system is used, it would be you, Paul!

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 22 Sep 2011 8:02 am

to clarify my note below..
1- is 1m not 1 hyphen ..it's SJNNS shorthand

Bo Borland wrote:I think it could go either way ..

For example.. a tune like "Summertime"
with a verse simply written as Am Dm E
While it is probably written in the key of C
On a chart, I am thinking 1- 4- 5
not 6- 2- 3

Adam Kavanaugh · Post by **Adam Kavanaugh** » 22 Sep 2011 1:43 pm

Not knocking anyone's method at all..if it works for a person then cool, it's serves the purpose. I find using the relative major as the I works for me. What one may get confused on if, say Am is just written as "I", then would you use the minor or major scale to determine the other numbers? Say if it went to a C...that would have to be determined in order to know if it's a III (using the minor scale or a bIII (if you go with the major). Just a thought...

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 22 Sep 2011 2:26 pm

I mentioned above how I thought that should work. Makes sense since there are several different minor scales but only one major scale. But apparently using the relative major key is what most people do anyhow.

Adam Kavanaugh · Post by **Adam Kavanaugh** » 22 Sep 2011 2:50 pm

Oh sorry Brint, missed your post there somehow. But yeah, I agree.

Elton Smith · Post by **Elton Smith** » 22 Sep 2011 5:33 pm

I been wondering about that .Thanks for clearing it up for me.Seems everyone has thier own approch.We do it what ever the key of the song is in ,is the 1 then 4, 5 ,5m. or so on.Is that right on the nns?Starting with the scale of the key.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 22 Sep 2011 7:40 pm

Personally I think the majority of people that THINK they know the number system...Don't at all...

Indeed. I had a first gig Saturday with a band who handed me a setlist with Keys "indicated"- for instance "B" for songs in the key of D that started on the 6m.
Kept me on my toes...