U 12 Copedant ??

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 25 May 2011 9:30 am

I want to set up a D 12 guitar as a SD 12 universal. The guitar has four knee levers, no vertical and 9 floor pedals. Does anyone have any suggestions for the best copedant set up for this type of a layout. All of the cross shafts run across the guitar so it should just be a matter of moving pullers, and re-rodding the guitar. Any information on this be helpful.

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 25 May 2011 10:58 am

Bob this should work great.

http://www.steelguitar.com/sampleS12Tuning.html

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 25 May 2011 12:20 pm

Heres a good start..

admin · Post by **b0b** » 25 May 2011 1:14 pm

Right. To adapt the Carter chart for 9+4, I'd put the LKR changes on pedal 1 (moving everything to the right), and the LKV change on LKR.

There's an error in that chart above. P6 should lower string 8 to D, not D#.

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 25 May 2011 4:44 pm

Thanks for all of the information, looking at the two charts above they seem to be very similar. I have a couple of questions though. I am used to playing with the E'S lowered by the LKR lever. Is there an advantage to moving this to the right, or is it just a matter of preference? I have not played A U12 so I am wondering if this would be a disadvantage or not? Any opinions would be helpful.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 25 May 2011 4:58 pm

The carter chart reflects all pedals with out Es lowered.
I like to lower Es with RKL
Frees left leg to move back and forth

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 25 May 2011 5:24 pm

Bob, I'm a long time U12 player. You want to get as much going on the right Knee as possible. When You play the 6th side of the tuning you will need to flat the Es and for the most part hold it in. It's Better on the right knee, but some guys have it on the LKR. I agree with Bob on the Knee levers. Since you have 9 pedals you may want to add the Franklin pedal or maybe another 6th pedal.

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 27 May 2011 1:34 pm

I've got 8 + 5 but you may want to check out my copedant.

Gary Grubb · Post by **Gary Grubb** » 27 May 2011 4:00 pm

I just traded my archtop guitar for a GFI Ultra SD-12. The knees were backwards from what I was expecting, because my LKR lowers my E's and LKL raises them. This is how I learned to play years ago. I never did learn the C6th neck, though it did make a handy armrest.

Now that I have this GFI I am wondering if it makes sense to start learning some C6th style. I am resisting the temptation of rigging it as an extended E9.

I am also not understanding why lowering the E string gets you in C6th, but then I never really got C6 tuning anyway.

Any help appreciated.

Gary in Petaluma, CA

Glenn Uhler · Post by **Glenn Uhler** » 27 May 2011 5:02 pm

Gary,
I'm a little rusty at this, but I think lowering the E's gives you a B6, not a C6. Slide up one fret, and you have C6.

BTW, I agree with Ken, Bob and Jeff Newman. I like my Eb's and F's on my right knee. (So many more combinations possible, unless you have more than two knees.)

Gary Grubb · Post by **Gary Grubb** » 27 May 2011 5:05 pm

Yep, I did a little reading an realized my error. The whole Universal tuning thing has got me mystified.

Glenn Uhler · Post by **Glenn Uhler** » 27 May 2011 5:15 pm

Gary,
Check my edited post!

It's not really a mystery. Hit the Eb lever and you have a B6 tuned guitar. Install an Eb lock and you have a B6 guitar all night. Now, forget about the A, B, and C pedals and most of the other knees. Slide up one fret and play the C6 changes on the remaining pedals. (OOps, I gave the secret away, SORRY GUYS)

Gary Grubb · Post by **Gary Grubb** » 27 May 2011 5:37 pm

OK, I know this will sound like a stupid question... maybe it is but I'll ask anyway.

If Universal tuning is a compromise why would one want to use it over a D-10? Is it just the weight?

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 27 May 2011 5:41 pm

After reading all of this I think it does make sense to have the E's lowered on the RKR. One question that I have on the Carter chart, What does "comp" stand for on pedal #2 string 7, and LKL String 6? I don't recall seeing this on any other chart.

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 27 May 2011 6:00 pm

Gary if you are asking why would I do this, Yes it would not appear to make sense. I am rebuilding a old D-12 guitar that has some damaged parts on both necks. I was thinking instood of going to all the expense to repair all the parts, why not try the U-12 set up with the good parts. I wanted to try this setup and this seems like a good way to test it. It would not harm the guitar, could be returned if needed, it will be lighter, and putting a pad on one side makes it comfortable to play.

Gary Grubb · Post by **Gary Grubb** » 27 May 2011 7:19 pm

Bob,

My question was not for you so much as the U-tuning players out there. Surely there is a good solid reason why one might switch... I dunno.

So back to the U-12 copedent...

I am lookig at the standard GFI U-12 chart and it has the left lever set the way I am use to it. I haven't studied psg in twenty years so my theory is way beyond rusty.

The right levers are different than what I have on the MSA. This might not matter much, since I never learned how to use them anyway. Man, I could use a good teacher!

Gary

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 27 May 2011 7:49 pm

Bob Muller wrote:After reading all of this I think it does make sense to have the E's lowered on the RKR. One question that I have on the Carter chart, What does "comp" stand for on pedal #2 string 7, and LKL String 6? I don't recall seeing this on any other chart.

Bob, I think it is some kind of 'compensation' tuning on that string...I can't recall if it makes the string 'flat' when initiated...

Gary Grubb · Post by **Gary Grubb** » 27 May 2011 8:07 pm

Casn someone explain why the 'D' note has been replaced with a 'B'? I do see that my RKR will raise the 'B' to a 'D' so I am guessing it has something to do with the B6. Let's face it... I don't get 6th tuning!

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 28 May 2011 6:12 am

Comp means Compensator...
The B instead of D is because if you take the open notes of a C6th neck C,F.A,..C,E,...G, A,. C,E,.. G
and lower them by 1 fret or 1/2 step you get ......................................B,E,G#,B,Eb,F#,G#,B,Eb,G#,Eb,F#
The notes of a E9th with Es lowered. Less the D which is on a lever.
The notes of a Universal E9th/B6th are very close as you can see,
I don't think of the Uni as a compromise any more than any other PSG.
Sometimes your root note becomes another interval in another chord, just more so on a uni but it is no harder to learn than learning E9th and C6th separately.
It seems easier to me in several ways.
I am surprised more people don't tune the back neck to B6th just so the chords line up.
The other pedals still work in B6th.. The A pedal sounds good with Es lowered. The B pedal Gives you a 7th chord.

Gary Grubb · Post by **Gary Grubb** » 29 May 2011 3:17 pm

Ken,

Thx for the explanation. That is a pretty cool idea tuning the back neck down to 'B6'.

I am kind of enjoying the idea of having the two concepts within reach on one neck. Now I just have to figure out what to do with the other other floor pedals.

Gary

Glenn Uhler · Post by **Glenn Uhler** » 30 May 2011 4:21 am

When you tune the back neck down to B6, you can get used to playing that. Then, when you are ready, you can install an Eb lever lock on the E9 neck. Instantly, two B6 necks. Since you have two, almost duplicate tunings, you can get rid of one. That's where the U12 comes in.

"Now I just have to figure out what to do with the other other floor pedals."

Franklin pedal, Mooney pedal, G pedals, etc!

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 30 May 2011 9:01 am

What is the best way to install a lock on the E lower lever? I know it can just be tied back to the leg, but does anyone have photos of a mechanical device to do this. I am still in the process of rebuilding the guitar, now might be a good time to incorporate a locking device. Thanks for all the great ideas so far, I think this will be a very interesting project for me.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 30 May 2011 10:33 am

If it's on RKR you can use a bent coathanger wire or a bungee cord to hold the lever in place. Just loop it onto the leg of the guitar.

Bob Muller · Post by **Bob Muller** » 30 May 2011 11:08 am

Here are a couple photos of the guitar I am using to build the UNI-12 with. I plan to use the first 4 pedals for the E9 changes, the other 5 ar for the B6 changes. I am still cleaning up parts,from the underside. I plan to install new pullers, and rods, all other parts should be original. This should make a nice setup when it's finished.

Daniel Ibanez · Post by **Daniel Ibanez** » 7 Sep 2011 1:27 pm

b0b wrote:There's an error in that chart above. P6 should lower string 8 to D, not D#.

Hello Bob,
I am following this thread since I find it very useful to get me a copedent for my go-to Uni12.
Based on the several C6th copendents that I have checked, even in your link http://www.b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#C6jd the Pedal 6 is lowering the string 8 one semitone. Would you please confirm?
Thanks
Daniel

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