A somewhat unique problem

Justin Jacobson · From: Rochester, MN

ALright, I'm having a bit of a crisis. I think my new steel and set up sounds too smooth. Which I imagine sounds odd.

A bit of background, I have been playing regular guitar for 10 years now, I also play bass, mandolin, banjo, piano, accordion and cello. for the entire time I have played music I have had to fight my instruments to get them to sound the way I wan (I haven't had much in the way of "professional" equipment). My approach to playing and personal style is very influenced by that fight. I play guitar with alot of effects, basically like a Robert Fripp (with .5% of the talent) or an Edge, or the like. I tend to make the effects bigger than they need to be and compensate on the playing end to make it all sound pretty.

Then I got my first Pedal Steel about a year ago. A Sho-bud Maverick. Pedal steel has been my favorite sounding instrument for many many years. I tend to favor the sound in a more Alt-country (whiskeytown, Son Volt, Lambchop) setting or the slower indieish stuff (American Music Club, Red House Painters) and the more non country stuff (on Elton Johns stuff for example) and I had to really work the instrument in real time to get the sound I wanted, slightly ambient, minimalist, catering to the song (I play in a band that does mostly slow alt country stuff with a atmospheric bent).

Now I decided I wanted to finally get a pro steel setup. I got a fantastic Shobud pro II 8x4. a lexicon mx200 and a nice volume pedal (still working on a good amp, I have a fender frontman which does the job but am looking at a ampeg V-4) and now when I play everything sound so, for lack of a better word, smooth. I don't have to fight to get the silky tone that I tried to get but couldn't before. And now it doesn't sound like I'm playing.

So if you made through all that, any ideas or suggestions for this existential crisis of mine?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Can you explain "smooth"?

David Ellison · From: California, USA

I remember the same feeling when I went from driving a vintage car to a late model car with power brakes. You're used to the old one, and the new one feels uncomfortable, even though it's better. My guess is that once you get used to this steel, you won't notice the difference.

Justin Jacobson · From: Rochester, MN

I kind of figured I'd get used to it. I know it sounds better, but it's so different I can't tell if it fits anymore. I don't plan on giving up on it, but it is very tempting to go back to the sounds I know.

As to smooth, I wish I could define it. The best I could think of is if they took Michael McDonalds voice and turned it into a pedal steel.

Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

Try taping your fingers together and then close one eye while jumping back and forth from the volume pedal to the AB pedals and see if the "ole fight" returns. Razz

Seriously though, sound's like you just need to get used to your new better soundin rig. "Keep on a pickin" Bro Smile

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

Deleted cuz I didn't read your post closely enough before I commented.
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Justin Jacobson · From: Rochester, MN

Deleted because Dick deleted his.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Hey Justin,Do have any sound clips that you can post?Is Lambchop a band or the Shari Lewis hand Puppet? Winking

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Justin Jacobson · From: Rochester, MN

David Ellison · From: California, USA

I was assuming you meant that the pedal action was too smooth. If by "smooth" you mean that the sound is fatter than what you'd like, you can get a pickup wound to your liking, or have the one that's on there re-wound.

Larry Baker · From: Columbia, Mo. U.S.A.

I'm not going to post on this topic, just because I don't want to have to delete it. Larry
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Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Justin,I meant some sound clips of you playing,love to hear some. Winking

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Deleted because Dick and Justin deleted theirs and I hate to be the odd man out. Very Happy

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The Sho-Bud Maverick has the perfect tone for the sounds you want, but it's not a very good instrument mechanically or ergonomically. I suggest that you put the pickup from the Maverick in your new guitar. Don't worry about destroying the value of the Maverick - it's not worth much and changing the pickup generally increases its value.

The Lexicon MX200 is a very smooth sounding digital reverb. That's why most steel players like it. I think you'd be better off with a real spring reverb or, if that's too expensive, a Holy Grail stompbox.

Your volume pedal should be a pot pedal. The active pedals (like the Hilton) are designed to make the steel sound smoother. A pot pedal varies the tone slightly as you increase volume, resulting in less smoothness (but more character, IMHO).
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Ron Page · From: Penn Yan, NY USA

b0b,

I have all that gear and I don't sound smooth. How come? Laughing

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Ron Davis · From: Lake Arrowhead, California... We're a mile high. ;)

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Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I would practice more so your hands can express what you hear in your head. I am thinking that the rawness you are seeking is more about the context the steel is being used in and not so much about the FX and instruments in the music you like. The steel on the recordings you reference is mostly basic E9 licks.

In order to deal with your existential crisis I would try the opposite approach from what you normally do. Remove all FX and leave your sound naked. When I paint myself into a conceptual corner I often use a system of opposites to find a way out.

I think the shortest route to your goal is to study the most basic and standard steel guitar learning material like Jeff Newman's stuff and remove everything possible from your signal chain. I'll bet if you put 2 hours a day into it for 3 months then your current issues will be resolved. Then you will bump into whole new problems and its off to the races !
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Another difference is that the Sho-Bud Maverick doesn't sustain very long when compared to the Pro-II. Increased sustain means that there will be a more gradual decay - a "smoother" sound. You can decrease sustain by changing to a different bar. Try a glass bar for a dramatic difference, or use a Stevens-style dobro bar for a more subtle change. In between, see if you can get one of those old Nick Maniloff bakelite bars.
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

If there is a single "big problem" with the steel guitar's ability to play different kinds of music - as compared to guitars, wind instruments, keyboards - it's that the steel guitar is difficult to play percussively & staccato. It just IS a smooth-ish instrument, it doesn't want to pound, hammer, thrust and bite. And most of the players specifically like it for that, and they gear themselves towards playing nifty little smooth changing-voices-within-chords and bend-into-and-out-of-unison smooth licks.

I wrestle with this, as I like percussiveness and against-the-grain playing. If this "problem" sounds like what you're banging up against, there are three things I would suggest.

First off, bag the volume pedal for a while - don't even hook it up. You'll still need to be able to change overall volume quickly, either with your amp head right beside you or hook up a stompbox like a boost or compressor set not to compress, but just as a volume control right by your right hand. But you're trying to turn off the right hand "smooth machine" and get your volume differences by plucking technique.

Second, learn to play stock rhythm parts with your steel, the "boring" stuff that keyboard players and rhythm guitarists do all night long. Many of them are really easy, "Mustang Sally", Chuck Berryisms, plain four-to-the-bar country rhythm chunking - umm, they're really easy on guitar and piano, but on a steel it'll work your right hand to death. Play them right, not just a smooooth "steelized" version. Learn Dickey Bett's parts too, not just Duane Allman's....

So third, work on your right hand blocking (and left-hand blocking too)*, so that you can shut notes off as easily as play them on. Listen real carefully to what horn players and guitarists are doing when they play staccato - how long or short is each note duration, what are the spaces between notes - then try to make your hand do that. It's kind of mental, but it's also pretty hard. Continuous palm blocking while you're picking is just one necessity.

*(I added this as an edit, because I use light, large bars and lift the bar a lot to cut off notes - this is anathema to a "real" steel guitarist - the kind who can't play rhythm.) Mr. Green

My ideal would be to NOT have to switch back to guitar to play "guitar parts", but I'm still a few lifetimes away from that. There are a few - very few - steel guitarists who play without another rhythm guitar, like Jim Loessberg and Dave Easley. Easley plays a lot of instruments, and Loessberg is a fine drummer (hint). If you listen to some clips from his "Bebop" album below, you can hear how he cuts off notes, instead of letting them bleed on into the next one all the time.
http://www.startexrecords.com/

Chris Dorch · From: Wisconsin, USA

This may sound useless, and perhaps it is, but take your foot of the volume pedal and/or re-eq your setup until you get that bitey sound or whatever you are looking for.

Mavericks have a tendency to sound "thin" to some. And perhaps, that's what you like. You could probably dial that in with any amp. It just sucks if you are trying to run multiple setups (guitar and steel) thru the same amp.

If I were to guess, I think you'd like Zak Boddicker's tone from Drag the River. He plays a Pro 2 thru a Fender Superverb. He has that bitey/raw sounds that I think you want.

FWIW, and this isn't worth discussing, but I wouldn't call Lambchop alt-country in the slightest... If you want to call Mando Daio or Mogwai or any other alt band that uses a steel "alt-country" then so be it...

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Seems to me that Justin is trying to avoid the sound that most of us have been aiming for for years and have not yet attained. Embarassed

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

I think the PSG is a powerful rhythm instrument; but you never hear it played that way on a Nashville recording, it's not considered to be part of its nature.

It can do horn section riffs, cajun fiddle rhythm, and organ left hand comping. Also, you can use the volume pedal to counteract the sustain, instead of the way it is used to extend the sustain.

I like the suggestions to use lighter bars, but you could also experiment with odd stuff like a short section of pipe or conduit.

Douglas Bone · From: Fort Worth,Tx. USA

Listened to your sound clip and it sounded ok with what other musicians were doing. Not sure if you would want something different on that song. I'll bet others might give a buck or 2 to sound that good,
or smooth or?????????

Doug
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