Psg players and their backs

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 14 Feb 2011 12:09 pm

Since I just had a guided epidural injection on my back on Fri. I am curious, how common are back problems with psg players? I had lumbar surgery years ago when I was younger and my teacher Johnnie Bonvillain has just recently had surgery. Now I have a new herniated disc higher up in a much less operable area.
Maybe this is common knowledge and has been discussed before in the forum but I was just wondering if this is an occupational hazard for us steelers.
Just out of curiosity how many of us suffer with our backs?

Jody Dickerson

Thomas Cepek · Post by **Thomas Cepek** » 14 Feb 2011 12:57 pm

Hi Arthur !

I´m real sorry to read about your back problems.

I had an operation at my intervertebral disc (hope this is the right word) at my lumbar region 1,5 years ago. And another one last year at my neck, where I´ve got a new one.

But I´m not sure, if it is from steel playing. I play now for about 14 years and I´m not a pro player.

In my job I have to sit too much and too long, and I think, that´s the problem. Now I know, I have to do much sports for my back and that´s helps me a lot.

But I can´t carry my steel stuff any longer by myself. I always need help for that. Otherwise I love steel playing so much.

Kind regards and all good for your back... Thomas

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 14 Feb 2011 1:03 pm

I'm a physician and work a lot w/ herniated discs. The force of picking up a D-10 sitting on the floor in its case to upright, hauling amps, and especially horsing a cased steel into a car trunk are perfect actions for increasing the risk of lumbar disc herniation.

The direction of force when lifting heavy items in a bent position causes a wedge-like pressure on the front of the disc driving its contents backwards. If it ruptures the gelatinous disc material will extrude rearward toward the spinal canal and nerve roots causing sciatica (herniation).

That is precisely why I am trying to go from a D-10 to a S-12 Uni, which is 20 lbs lighter. Also helpful are wheels and a separate case for the pedal rack and legs. I've been using a plastic molded shotgun case. My guitar ways about 35-40 lbs and the pedal case is about 17 lbs. I've been using a N-112 or a rack system w/ individual speaker cabs.

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 14 Feb 2011 1:19 pm

Yes this is quite common and usually occurs over years of playing. My back finally went out in 2006 after 65 years of playing consule and pedal Steel.
Three herniated discs plus a lot of Arthritis from old age. With pedals and knee levers it is probably impossible to sit correctly. Also when playing Casuuals you load up, unload, carry, set up, break down, carry, load up to go home, unload, carry in the house, and then wonder ater playing four hours why your back aches. Even with Carts and Wheels it never was easy. I had to give up playing. I never tried the Epidural but I hear they do not last too long. Extra strength Exederin helps quite a bit. I can still get out and walk pretty good with the help of a good Walker to lean on a little bit. I'm too old now to consider surgery. I don't know your age but I have learned just to live with it ! Too bad
Steel Guitar had to progress beyond a single neck Lap Steel (Joke). I hope you find some relief !

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 14 Feb 2011 1:24 pm

I had back surgery several times and have a spinal cord stimulator implant now for a little more than 6 years..
Hook

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 14 Feb 2011 1:38 pm

Light weight split cases with wheels. Reduces the carrying weight 20 pounds. www.hattoncases.net
The wheels make transporting a breeze.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 14 Feb 2011 3:51 pm

This is why I got an MSA Millennium, the lightest steel guitar on the market, and am now using a 22 pound ZT Club amp.

Lighter is better.

Bob Vantine · Post by **Bob Vantine** » 14 Feb 2011 10:48 pm

12-1/2 YRS with 5 herniated discs ,that no one will touch.
Holding a 6 string was just as bad , and since I had to sit anyway , I went back to trying to play steel.Altho I haven't touched anything most of the winter .Nerve damage has messed with the hands as much as the back & neck.
I have a StageOne Steel and take my time , if and when I play out .

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 15 Feb 2011 4:33 am

Kevin Hatton wrote:Light weight split cases with wheels. Reduces the carrying weight 20 pounds. www.hattoncases.net
The wheels make transporting a breeze.

And they are top notch quality, from a top notch guy.

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 15 Feb 2011 4:49 am

I will be having a spine operation on the 17Th of this month, I have had back problems all my life.

Arthur Dickerson · Post by **Arthur Dickerson** » 15 Feb 2011 7:37 am

I have to say I am surprised at how quick this brought responses. I think Hook has the worst of it what with the stimulator and all, but anybody with this pain is sufferring because it is in direct conflict with your best escape from bad stuff in your life--playing your instrument. Even though I figured out carrying and lifting were bad a while back, it has taken the last year to realize that's only part of it. Just the posture you are in when you play grates on your back. Extending your arms and extending your feet is just like driving a car which is universally regarded as bad for your back. And I think my worst habit is not sitting fully up underneath the instrument. I'll casually sit down just to " figure out this one thing" and I won't be sitting like I should and I'll be sitting out away from the steel and the next thing I know I'm leaning way over the instrument and it has been thirty minutes and my back is hurting.

The lifting causes the lumbar discs to go, but I think, the thoracics are the ones that are more sensitive to posture(especially once your lumbars vert. are taken care of since you have less flexing at the bottom of the spine the higher vertebrae get the stress. It's amazing how good my posture has become. But then that just allows me to play longer before I am hurting so bad I have to stop. My wife wants to know why I can play the steel but washing dishes seems to escape me. My only response is that when I play the steel it "hurts so good" to paraphrase soon song or another.

I'm also interested in any tips anybody has. Poultices, Gris-Gris charms, accupuncture, physical therapy, etc

Jody. (aka Arthur)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Feb 2011 9:12 am

Jody,
As all the previous posts (and your own experiences) indicate, back problems are one of the occupational hazards of playing pedal steel. When I turned 50 I had endured several bouts of strained muscles and misalignment that, fortunately, never required any more treatment than a chiropractor could deliver, but were as painful and lingering as any medical problem I've ever had. At that time, I instituted my '50# rule'. I won't carry anything that weighs more than 50# and use a 2-wheel hand truck for any load-in's that require carrying my gear more than a hundred feet or so. That has reduced my back ailments dramatically over the past 10 years.

I also avoid lifting my steel from the floor. I usually put the case on the stage, riser, or two chairs facing each other, to get the case between knee and waist height. As Dr. Tony mentioned, this can really reduce the momentary stress on your lumbar spine (a prime site of injury).

I was a weekend warrior, only playing a couple of times a week until I retired from my day job at age 53. Since then, I've become a full time musician, playing 3-5 nights each week and loving everything except the load-in-and-out and setup/teardowns from all those one nighters.

I have always played a single neck 12-string but always on a double 10 or double 12 frame, so it really isn't much lighter than a D-10. My push-pull S/D-12 actually violates my 50# rule by a few pounds. I love tube amps and have had great success with Ken Fox's wonderful 95W all tube steel amp, the 5F8B chassis. 95 watts of tube power at less than 50# total weight is a good deal for me. I have never played through a better sounding, more perfectly voiced amp for steel -- and the 42# weight (Ken advertises them at 46, but mine weighs 42 on my bathroom scale) is a godsend.

Reduce the weight of the individual items where possible
Don't lift from the floor any more than necessary
Wheels on cases, split cases for heavy guitars, and/or 2-wheel carts can help
Be especially careful when loading a heavy item into your vehicle -- the angle will GET YOU

Hope this helps

Tim Herbert · Post by **Tim Herbert** » 15 Feb 2011 11:40 am

Interesting discussion. I find that posture is a problem for me - I tend to slouch over the guitar rather than sitting up straight, which clearly is doing my back no good. Any ideas on how to address that issue? I've tried a back brace, with marginal success.

Thanks!

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 15 Feb 2011 12:19 pm

Sitting at a pedal steel causes problems not only with the back but the backside: hemorrhoids.

I think Junior Brown has the right idea.

If you work out with weights, there are routines you can do to strengthen your back (back extensions), shoulders, and trapezius muscles (shrugs). I found I was much less susceptible to pain once I started doing those.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 15 Feb 2011 3:14 pm

Toting all your stuff around is more physical exertion than most people are used to, and of course you're liable to hurt yourself. Every winter you read about sedentary middle-aged men having heart attacks shoveling snow. But cardiovascular issues aside, take a tip from the bodybuilding world. http://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Deadlift
The key is: "Never lose the natural arch of your back. If you're bent over, you're going to hurt your lower back." Lift with your legs, not your lower back. I find it easier to carry my my amp and steel at the same time; seems to balance me out better and put less strain on my back.

Danny Letz · Post by **Danny Letz** » 15 Feb 2011 4:58 pm

I have a ruptured disc between L4 & 5. The disc is gone and I am down to bone to bone. The only reason I am able to get by is because I naturally had a little more room where the nerves come out. I do OK getting the stuff out of the Explorer, but try to get help getting it back in. I have a S10 & a Nash 112, but find my seat to be one of the heaviest items. I used to walk out of the clubs carring two Nashville 400's at the same time. My best advice is that even if you can do that, don't. Use a dolley and be careful lifting. Once it's gone it's gone. One of the hardest things to do, for me, is to ask for help or stand around waiting on help. I am 6" 1" and weight 210 and it sure is hard to watch a woman or an 80 year old man load my stuff.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 15 Feb 2011 11:33 pm

I have a bad back,happened years before I was playing steel. A B-3 and Leslie got mine.

YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

David Wright · Post by **David Wright** » 16 Feb 2011 4:46 am

Any back problems I have is from 40 years of Masonry!! moving my steel & amps is a walk in the park compared to laying 35 lbs block all day!!!

once I get this Steel App for my Iphone figured out, I'll have it made!!

O one more thing, I do have a roady..

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 16 Feb 2011 6:32 am

I can look back upon 15 years of neck, shoulder and back problems. As I also knew but always pushed into the background of my worries, also a life history of bad/improper posture.

Just sitting behind a PSG or a piano... can lead over 30 minutes to debilitating pain. I can easily schlepp a PSG and an amp in the other hand... no problem, but playing can be difficult and lead to excruciating pain.

I have only now, at age 45 found a person who teaches me how to work on my posture effectively and without generating pain elsewhere. I've only been seeing that specialist for 3 weeks now, but it's the biggest change for better I have ever experienced.

I am fully aware that my experience can't possibly be projected upon everybody else's issues, but consider to have your posture habits revised.

... J-D.

Kirk Eipper · Post by **Kirk Eipper** » 16 Feb 2011 12:50 pm

Hook Moore wrote:I had back surgery several times and have a spinal cord stimulator implant now for a little more than 6 years..
Hook

Hook, how does the dorsal column stimulator mask the pain? I was offered that option and just didn't want to go that route.

Best,

Kirk

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 16 Feb 2011 1:08 pm

This might help www.AllAboutBackPain.com
Like many have said,proper body mechanics when lifting will help.

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 16 Feb 2011 4:34 pm

You guys are a bundle of laughs...just when I've fallen back in love with my old D-10 Emmons push pull. "oh my achin' back!" $:\$

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 18 Feb 2011 11:29 am

I'll share where I am now with equipment and hauling. When this gets to be too much I'm done cuz' I can't play a flute. -

Four wheel cart from Harbor Freight, Feather Lite ( and I mean FEATHERLITE ) case from Dan Bentley and Jeep Cherokee from Adesa Auction .
Seriously, The Bentley case is the greatest thing since the Easter Bunny , for light. I bet it don't weigh 6 pounds. With the guitar, it seems like the same weight as the guitar by it's self. I strongly recommend it to anyone wanting to lighten their load. -

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Feb 2011 11:58 am

Bill Myrick wrote:

... Feather Lite ( and I mean FEATHERLITE ) case from Dan Bentley ...Seriously, The Bentley case is the greatest thing since the Easter Bunny , for light. I bet it don't weigh 6 pounds. With the guitar, it seems like the same weight as the guitar by it's self. I strongly recommend it to anyone wanting to lighten their load. -

Bill are these cases sturdy enough for air travel? How much do they cost? And how do we contact Mr. Bentley? Does he have a web site?

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 18 Feb 2011 12:30 pm

Mike : They are entirely differant than the ordinary case in their construction. Nothing like a flight case but talk to Dan-- they are plenty sturdy enough for my use for sure. No web site that I know of. Check your email please. Bill.

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