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Topic: Playing By Ear - A Caution to Newbies. |
David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 3:04 pm |
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John Broughten started a thread titled "Is Music Theory Necessary". In the subsequent posts there are many interesting perspectives. The trouble in that thread is with the whole concept of playing by ear. It is not explained or agreed upon. Playing by ear does not mean the use of some universal talent. Put genius aside for a moment, when a person plays by ear they do so by knowing how music works (theory) either consciously of subconsciously. They don't put the bar in the right place by luck or the feel of the piece. You don't get that feel until you recognise intervals and relationships. Give the average Ear Player a new tune and they will noodle around until they get it. What they are doing is thinking graphically on their instrument. Now, look at how many musical instruments are made each year and how many musical genii are born in the same period. Who is going to play all the left-overs? They are people like you and me who have to learn how. Sure you can strum a three chord song without learning much, but that is only playing by ear in its most rudimentary. If you want to play more complex and interesting music you will have to think it through at some level. I am equally skeptical about musical genius. Name one and you are probably looking at someone who started when they were a child; when the hard-drive was pristine. It is easy to absorb all the relationships and intervals at that point in life. If you are over about 10 you are probably not going to learn fast enough to create the illusion of genius, but there is still the next level which is pretty damn hot anyway. Unfortunately, I missed both.
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Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother.
Last edited by David Matzenik on 14 Feb 2011 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 3:55 pm
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David, all of that knowledge is accumulated through time, but starting off playing by ear is starting off from ground zero. That's how I did it, but I was very young. Nothing made any sense to me at all but through time I could distinguish between major and minor. After about 3 or 4 years or aimless noodling, I decided it was probably time to get some structure. I went to the library and took a book by Barney Kessel out. I kept learning these little things in the book like chord qualities and suddenly one day things started to click. I was about 12 or 13 at the time.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 4:56 pm
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I thought that playing by ear had more to do with not reading (or not sight-reading) sheet music? Many pianists can play music placed in front of them without knowing anything whatsoever about music theory.
I heard that Joaquin Murphey could not read music so he played by ear, but his knowledge of music as an art and a science was simply amazing.
Steve Ahola
P.S. I learned how to read music on Spanish guitar by learning the melodies to all of the Christmas carols since I already knew them. But sight-read? Only in my dreams... 
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 6:49 pm
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I know for me and probably most who are self taught, you do learn "theory" along the way, but you just didn't realize why what you were doing made sense. Only when you hear more advanced players use accepted musical terms, did it hit you "I knew that, I just didn't know what it was called".
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 7:18 pm
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I'm with Mike and Steve. Ear playing is about training your ear to "hear" intervals.
I picked up most of my theory by reading (mostly Guitar Player magazine... I've only been playing Lap for 6 years) I can only read sheet music slowly and have a hard time divining the rhythm directly from notation.
Over time I've pikced up the ability to figure out the chord progessions of most tunes by ear alone and can (most time) tell the difference between major/minor/7th/9th/aug/dim chords by sound alone. If I can hum amelody I can usually pick it out on guitar or lap.
Not braggin or anything 
_________________
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If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
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Tom Franke
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 8:06 pm
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| Steve Ahola wrote: |
I thought that playing by ear had more to do with not reading (or not sight-reading) sheet music? Many pianists can play music placed in front of them without knowing anything whatsoever about music theory.
... |
Great point. I just read through the other thread on music theory, and it seems reading music and knowing music theory have gotten intertwined. Probably most people who learned to read music also have learned some explicit music theory. That's true for me because I learned clarinet and saxaphone from private lessons with a former jazz musician. He explained theory as we went along, and it was mostly practical theory rather than extremely abstract. And i've known at least one excellent guitarist who didn't read music but really understood chord structure in a way I consider knowledge of theory. So reading music and knowing theory are two different things that are often related during formal instruction.
Guitar and other string instruments are somewhat unique in that large numbers of people learn to play without reading music. Folk, country, bluegrass, are all musical traditions built heavily on learning a body of music and playing it without written compositions. I can't imagine a successful clarinetist, trombonist, or oboist who doesn't read music. Those instruments mainly play the type of music that is written down, played in groups, and requires that each musician play what is written for the whole musical performance to work.
In the 48 or so years I've played acoustic guitar, I've used my ability to read standard music notation occasionally as an aid to learning. I've mostly learned to play from chord and picking patterns-by ear, in other words. As an amateur I have the luxury of playing just what I choose. If I wanted to be a professional guitarist, I would probably work at becoming a proficient music reader in standard notation, and I would learn the Nashville system and any other system that would help me quickly play new material. In fact, I would do that as an amateur if my musical ambitions required it. However, with the type of music I play, no one ever pulls out sheet music. Someone names a tune and says what key it is in, and we're off and running. In general, though, I think knowledge about music and the tools of the trade--including music reading--is good, as long as it doesn't become an end in itself. |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 13 Feb 2011 9:16 pm
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I would say to any new player who wanted to learn steel guitar by ear to first of all mask the neck so they don't see the fret markers and see how far they get. Sure it can be done, fiddlers do it all the time,but this is the reality of playing by ear and not some notion perpetuated by the couple of undisciplined generations since consumerism hit the music industry.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 1:09 am
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| David Matzenik wrote: |
| I would say to any new player who wanted to learn steel guitar by ear to first of all mask the neck so they don't see the fret markers and see how far they get. Sure it can be done, fiddlers do it all the time,but this is the reality of playing by ear and not some notion perpetuated by the couple of undisciplined generations since consumerism hit the music industry. |
David:
So do those undisciplined generations go back to New Orleans in the 20's? Many of the musicians who developed dixieland music (and in doing so invented jazz) did not read music nor had they ever studied music theory. In fact I believe that it was a bragging point for many of them.
Not that I think that we should emulate them. For someone interested in learning how to play steel guitar (or regular guitar!) I would recommend that they first learn the scales so that they can find the notes on the fretboard.
I never found anything as boring as playing scales up and down, up and down. So I would do scalar intervals like 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 4-6, etc.- in that case learning how the thirds alternated between major and minor. And then learn the rest of the intervals, and get into triplets and quadruplets.
Put scale tones together and you have chords. The particular inversions you use are very important and someone might show you the ones that seem to work well or you could figure that out on your own. So far none of that is music theory- it is more like the mathematics of music. So where does music theory fit into the equation?
I think it is good to understand how the notes and chords relate to each, so if you learn a melody line you can understand what is going on with it rather than just playing it by rote.
Modern music is a big tent, so to speak, with all sorts of different styles and genres, each of them following its own subset of rules based on music theory.
You could say that scales and chords are like the words in the vocabulary, with music theory being the grammar that we use to put them together to make a coherent statement.
Steve Ahola
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 4:29 am
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Steve, a generation is usually considered about 25 years, so a couple would put as back about 1960. I think that is when many disciplines began to go to hell. Song writing is one of them. Try counting the great melodies of the 1990s. The music industry does not want people to spend years honing their craft. Like all businesses it wants turnover. My point is not about theory as opposed to ear. Or even the music industry. I'm trying to warn newbies that playing by ear does not mean they can avoid learning how music works. No accusations here but it may be very hip to say one is not into theory, it goes along with the whole new age attitude to anything that requires some effort; parenting, marriage, not buying things you can't afford, the art of conversation, you name it. When great musicians say they don't know anything about theory they are being disingenuous. And they are not doing anyone any favors. In some cases they are just lousy at communicating how they think.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 1:40 pm
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>>No accusations here but it may be very hip to say one is not into theory, it goes along with the whole new age attitude to anything that requires some effort.
Country, blues and folk music has been made for many, many years by people who knew nothing about music theory. Much of the best music in these genres was made years ago, when the majority of players knew less than most players do nowadays.
People will learn music theory when they develop an interest in it, but I don't think it's necessary to making music... especially for someone just starting out. I played guitar for years and never knew much about music until I started playing steel. At that point, I just jumped in and learned what I needed to know. At that point, I was really hungry for musical knowledge, but I wouldn't have gotten to that point unless I went through the process of playing and learning on my own. |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 2:58 pm
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q: How do you get a guitar player to stop playing?
a: Put a piece of sheet music in front of him!
An oldie but a goodie...
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Webb Kline
From:
Orangeville, PA
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 7:40 pm
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I got by for half of my adult years without really understanding chord theory and with only having a limited understanding of scale theory. I could read Nashville charts and play well with them. But, one night I did a jazz gig with charts and realized that I really didn't know what constituted, for example, a M13b11th chord.
It was embarrassing and I woodshedded chord and scale theory. Looknohands.com was a huge asset in this. Once I understood what gave a chord its notation, and once I understood modes and the fundamentals of scales, it revolutionized my playing. When I was a kid, I used to tear up Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, yet had no clue what I was playing or how really to apply much of it. If it was a lick that I liked and I could use it somewhere, I would memorize it. But, it really got me nowhere in playing by ear.
But, once I understood chord and scale theory, I could sit down and play along with just about anything with hardly any guesswork and meandering around. Today, much of my personal practice evolves around playing along with XM or Pandora radio stations, where I have to play along with a lot of material that I never even heard before. Having this knowledge of chord and scale theory makes jamming along a blast. My chops improve steadily.
So, I guess I am one who believes that playing by ear is something that anyone with a limited knowledge can prod along at, but for someone to not take the time to develop a good knowledge of chords and scales will prevent them from truly honing their ear and improvisational skills. |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 8:38 pm
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| Webb Kline wrote: |
| So, I guess I am one who believes that playing by ear is something that anyone with a limited knowledge can prod along at, but for someone to not take the time to develop a good knowledge of chords and scales will prevent them from truly honing their ear and improvisational skills. |
Great post, Webb! Knowledge is power- wouldn't everyone want to be a more powerful player?
Steve |
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Ian
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 2:39 am Re: Original Post
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David,
What are you trying to gain from this? Warning "newbies" about "Playing by Ear." I love the Steel Guitar Forum because it allows steel players throughout the world to communicate and share their enthusiasm for the instrument(s). You seem to have an agenda. "Musical genii" "play all the left-overs" - I'm not necessarily calling BS but your Original Post reminds me of the sort of ramblings I hear behind the bar. I'm a bartender. Again, what's your point?
Ian |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 4:59 am
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I say play by ear sans caution - that's how mankind has been making music for thousands upon thousands of years. That said, one needs to develop one's mental, internal construct unless you're in the world of 100% free playing.
BUDDY EMMONS, Steel Guitar Forum, March 1998 – HOW TO PRACTICE
“When I look at the strings on my guitar, I see intervals. I see strings 1 and 2, 1 and 3, or 4 and 5 as whole tones apart. I see major thirds, minor thirds, and see which fret to put the bar for a certain note between those intervals. I see fourths, fifths, sixths, and octaves telling me what string to play when I hear those notes in a melody. To make this work, you must be able to recognize intervals when you hear them. I put as much emphasis on the mental part of practice as the physical. … The beauty of hearing and recognizing intervals is that it will work for any tuning or any instrument. That’s why some people can pick up a strange instrument, listen to its intervals and be playing melodies in a manner of minutes.” |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 5:13 am
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Ian, I certainly see how my original post could seem like a rave. Its a bit intense. I don't want to labor this, but my point is that playing by ear is not a free ride. I feel it is continually presented to new learners as such. Tell us what you think playing by ear means. I've said enough. Aloha.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 5:40 am
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"Many of the musicians who developed dixieland music (and in doing so invented jazz) did not read music nor had they ever studied music theory. "
Actually, that is not true. Jazz really started through a combination of the HIGHLY trained creoles and poor southern blacks just off the plantation. Creoles were extremely accomplished musicians who held most of the orchestra positions in New Orleans at the time. The southern blacks added the blues, wails, and vocalizations to jazz and the creoles brought a high degree of musicality and craft.It was the combination that really created jazz. And of course Louis Armstrong could read music.
But reading music and theory are two different things. I know orchestra musicians who can play anything put in front of them, but have no real theory training. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 10:33 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| And of course Louis Armstrong could read music. |
Bix had a better ear and made better note choices than Armstrong IMO. I am a strong advocate of learning to read but once in a lifetime comes a completely self-taught loner like Bix who famously would not learn to read but blew everybody else away. |
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Ian
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 10:34 am
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David,
No worries.
Ian |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 11:30 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| And of course Louis Armstrong could read music. |
Bix had a better ear and made better note choices than Armstrong IMO. I am a strong advocate of learning to read but once in a lifetime comes a completely self-taught loner like Bix who famously would not learn to read but blew everybody else away. |
Yeah, but Bix was a child prodigy. I remember reading an article from the Davenport News about this wunderkind who could play back any melody transposed to any key on the piano. His mother said one night she heard one of the riverboats going by and she recognized the piano playing coming from the boat and, sure enough, it was Bix. He was a child at the time.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 2:27 pm
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| Tom Franke wrote: |
| ...So reading music and knowing theory are two different things that are often related during formal instruction... |
Great point!
Reading music off a stave is one skill set.
The written note is just that, a written note. It only describes what note(s) and when to play them, and perhaps a dynamic term or symbol to indicate the volume of those notes.
There is no explanation of the relationship between the notes written.
Theory, on the other hand, does not explain why a note is written the way it is, but rather classifies groups of notes into chords and scales and their relationship to one another.
Clete |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 2:52 pm
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"Bix had a better ear and made better note choices than Armstrong IMO. I am a strong advocate of learning to read but once in a lifetime comes a completely self-taught loner like Bix who famously would not learn to read but blew everybody else away"
Love Bix, but Armstrong never made a bad note choice in his life. Them's fighting words partner. 
But even Bix learned to read when he re-joined Jean Goldkette's band after being tossed out BECAUSE he couldn't read.
And how many Bix's have their been since the beginning of time: one. One and only one Bix! |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 4:58 pm
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| Andy Volk wrote: |
I say play by ear sans caution - that's how mankind has been making music for thousands upon thousands of years. That said, one needs to develop one's mental, internal construct unless you're in the world of 100% free playing.
BUDDY EMMONS, Steel Guitar Forum, March 1998 – HOW TO PRACTICE
“When I look at the strings on my guitar, I see intervals. I see strings 1 and 2, 1 and 3, or 4 and 5 as whole tones apart. I see major thirds, minor thirds, and see which fret to put the bar for a certain note between those intervals. I see fourths, fifths, sixths, and octaves telling me what string to play when I hear those notes in a melody. To make this work, you must be able to recognize intervals when you hear them. I put as much emphasis on the mental part of practice as the physical. … The beauty of hearing and recognizing intervals is that it will work for any tuning or any instrument. That’s why some people can pick up a strange instrument, listen to its intervals and be playing melodies in a manner of minutes.” |
You know, re-discovering THAT post, it made my day!
Some of you may remember my thread a couple months ago on the Steel Players section of this forum, titled something "LEARNING to play by ear...".
Some who posted here contributed on that one too.
What BE explains, is EXACTLY what I have set my mind to practice. Actually, I found that I had to practice it without my guitar first... learning to identify by hearing intervals... first to be able to just identify them upon hearing them one by one... then be able to sing each interval top note upon hearing the base note (after having decided which interval I was trying to achieve) etc.
I can by now name and produce minor seconds, seconds, minor thirds, major thirds and fourths with 96% certainty (I use a software program which test me and gives me ratings.).
Luckily, I know intervals on my tunings pretty OK.
The few times I have put my hands on a steel ever since, after a quick "getting back into the instrument", the process is showing very positive results. I intend to see this thru.
So, what sets the ones of "us" who struggle vs. a Buddy Emmons or a Jerry Byrd who allegedly stated that very early on, when listening to his peers, he could just "SEE" what they were doing?
Really, I think, they did just what BE described above, just subconsciously. I doubt that in the late 50's when he was already "killing" everyone with his musical prowess and creativity, he would THEN have been able to explain what he was doing at all or as well as he did much later (above).
In other words, even if it would seem effortless playing without any apparent effort... "they" may indeed not seem to have any sheet before them, STILL, they do "SEE" (like project from their view onto the fretboard) where what they want to hear is. They may not know they do, or how so... but they do.
Maybe THAT is talent and if it is... I believe, it can be learned.
... J-D.
_________________
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Robert Jette
From:
Dallas, Tx.
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 5:29 pm
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| These threads have really helped me turn a critical eye towards how I approach music. I realize now that I'm a "box/position player" who doesn't really understand the relationship of the notes that I'm playing (intervals)...and I know every dang note in those boxes! I popped over to an interval training website, and I have to say that I'm intrigued. JD, could you please share the name of the software that you're using? Thanks.. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2011 6:40 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
Armstrong never made a bad note choice in his life. Them's fighting words partner.
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I wouldn't have thought so either until one of the "critics" on the Ken Burns Jazz series on TV played West End Blues, saying here is Armstrong's best solo, and at then end of the record, where the rhythm section plays a minor 4 chord, Satchmo plays a strong major against it; i.e. C natural against an A flat minor chord. Ooops!! Then a beatified countenance descended upon the "critic", as tho he had just partied with Charlie Sheen and all earthy cares had left him and he looked at us and said something along the lines of "That record is the consummation of all human achievement and I shall personally draw and quarter any man who would change even one note" while I shouted at the TV "didn't you hear that clam at the end?" Nevertheless I know that Pops arguably did more good for American music than any other figure. |
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