Analogue Delay

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 25 Oct 2010 1:28 pm

Well, my post regarding a Toneczar Echoczar delay yielded zip, though I kind of expected as much.
So...is anyone using a completely analogue delay with pedal steel? This would be the old bucket-brigade style.
The reason I'm curious is this: I found that when playing notes running together, first 3 strings, particularly above the 12th fret, I'm getting some unwanted artifacts - sort of octave down, sort of distorted repeats.
I'm told that: It is not "level" that is the problem, it's the extended high frequency range. If you didn't play much over high E (1400hz) you would not have noticed a problem.
I'm going to find some other analogue delays for comparison, but I thought I'd ask here: anyone have a similar or dissimilar experience?

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 25 Oct 2010 1:44 pm

I play through an old Yamaha E1005 unit and haven't had anything like that. But I use it pretty dry with only one repeat--I can get some pretty bizarre sounds out of it depending on how I set it up.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Oct 2010 2:00 pm

Those low sounds are called difference tones and come from a certain type of distortion. You are prolly right about overloading your input. I would buffer the signal into the delay and that should clear it up.

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 25 Oct 2010 3:02 pm

Thanks, David and Bob.
I do use more than one repeat, though I find that long, slow delays do not produce the problem effect.
The digital or "hybrid" delays I have do not produce that, either.
Further ideas are most welcome.

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 26 Oct 2010 12:53 pm

I have amended the original post to reflect a correct idea of what's going on.
To wit, "It is not 'level' that is the problem, it's the extended high frequency range. If you didn't play much over high E (1400hz) you would not have noticed a problem."
This is hardly my field, so I defer to those who know.
Any further ideas on this now?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Oct 2010 8:29 am

Sounds like whoever wrote that line knows zip about musical instrument frequency response or just doesn't give a hoot.

Take a quick look at the chart on the following page, which shows the frequency response of various musical instruments. Note especially the pedal steel line, which goes WAY past 1400hz.

http://www.terrydownsmusic.com/technote ... s/FREQ.HTM

As you can see in the chart the AUDIBLE frequencies of various instruments are found far above the "fundamental" tone of any particular note. The "high E" at "1400hz" would be the 24th fret on a 6-string - normally only found in the shred-o-matic, pointy-guitar metal zones. Most 6-strings top out at 21 or 22 frets. The number is also wrong - it's 1318.4hz.

And that can be found right around the 8th fret on the third string of an E9 tuning.

But 1300 or 1400 hz isn't the highest note you hear (unless you spent the late 60's as Blue Cheer's roadie and sat in front of the guitar speaker cabinets). The harmonic content - not just the simple harmonic derived from doubling the fundamental, but several notches above (called the "order") combined with any OTHER strings vibrating and producing their higher harmonics are a big part of what defines the tone of an instrument.

The vibration characteristics of different woods (and/or metals, strings - EVERY component) and the "voicing" of pickups (i.e what frequency ranges are emphasizes) are all part of the audible puzzle as well.

Simply speaking, the maker told you "Don't play above the 8th fret."

Good advice for bass players - lousy for normal pedal steel.

There is far more detail I could go into regarding tape, analog, "faux analog" and digital delays - but to cut to the chase I interpet that response as an excuse for a limited (or faulty) design unusable for normal steel playing - and NO E9 player should consider one.

Larry Robinson · Post by **Larry Robinson** » 27 Oct 2010 10:59 am

FWIW, one thing you forgot to take into consideration about frequency response is the speaker. Most speaker frequency response rarely go above 6KHz. Speaker cabs can be designed for higher frequency using tweeters and crossover networks. The frequency response on the chart is out of the range of musical instruments speakers. BW speakers response is around 3-4 KHz. JBL D,K, E series have higher frequency response, around 6KHz. JBL D series speaker was initally used as high fidelity speaker. Then guitar players started using them. However, players playing too loud blew the speakers. John Hughey told me he used nothing but JBL D130 speakers and he had never blown one.

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 27 Oct 2010 1:51 pm

Thanks guys.
Jim - I was quoting someone about the 1400hz, and do not presume to understand the science.
Do you use any delays? If so, which? What else can you (succinctly) add about various types of delays (in dummy terms for me)?

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 27 Oct 2010 2:38 pm

I will often use the two octave up function on my whammy pedal along with analog, digital and faux analog delays and I dont encounter any unwanted noises.(this on a regular guitar)

on pedal steel I havent encountered any either , even in the high ranges.

delay pedals I use:
Boss DM2
Line 6 DL4
Way Huge Aqua Puss
Carbon Copy
BYOC

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Oct 2010 5:05 pm

Have you tried using a different amp ?

Geoff Cline · Post by **Geoff Cline** » 27 Oct 2010 5:22 pm

Hi Daniel:

I use a Diamond Memory Lane (v.1) analog delay (bucket brigade) and love the sounds and tones it produces. I do run a Sarno Black Box before my pedal board to buffer.

Hard to imagine that a ToneCzar Echoczar is anything other than spectacular, as most consider it the state of the art of analog delay boxes (non-tape). Are you using an Angel Baby with it as well? Perhaps too hot/high on the feedback (that is, your right at the edge of self-oscilating and that could be what you're hearing)?

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 27 Oct 2010 5:56 pm

Thanks again, gents.
Bob: yes, I've tried my NV112 and Evans SE200. Same result. However, going to Vintage mode does reduce the artifacts, as do longer, held notes rather than notes run (more quickly) together.
Geoff: can't get hold of a Memory Lane, but I did get an EHX Memory Boy and MXR Carbon Copy, and I will try those this week. I'm not on the edge of oscillation, and I did not pick up the Angel Baby, though it does sound nice.
I did get a private e-mail from someone stating that he had a similar experience using the Carbon Copy - said he even tried a second one, to be sure the first one wasn't defective. It wasn't.
Am I largely correct in believing that the majority of delay users go with digital of some sort?

David Britton · Post by **David Britton** » 27 Oct 2010 6:47 pm

True Analog delays all have some sort of Low-pass filter (cuts highs). This is to reduce the noise levels that are inherent to analog delay chips like BBD's. Different manufacturers using different chips, however, use different amounts of filtering to reduce the noise levels, as every chip type is different.

A digital delay will not do this. If you want analog sound (warmth) but with digital flexibility, try a modeler like the Line 6 DL-4 or its smaller stombox version.

Personally, I use the MXR carbon-copy and absolutely LOVE it. Warm, reliable, heavy duty and doubles as a weapon if a bar fight gets outta hand.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 27 Oct 2010 9:13 pm

Daniel - I use multiple delays and NO reverb (unless mixing a recording or playing surf music!).

My usual setup is (with boost, T-Wah, phase, flange and other stuff in the mixture) is the EM5 Echomachine and SIB Mr Echo; I set the EM5 at around 200ms, low level and 3 seconds of repeats; the SIB is set at 100MS, double the level of the EM5 but with quicker decay.

It makes things sound "large" but not washed out - I hate the muddiness and lack of articulation with most reverb units.

That's the setup on my single pedalboard, small club rig. Other times I'll add mt H&K Replex, using the two-head setting and/or a Line 6 DL4 (with a "swell" or reverse delay) AND add a Sireko tape echo as well.

I'll have about 8 pedals in the chain NOT including delays, and up to 5 delays all with different settings (Oh, yeah - I have an unusual Peavey multi-effect pedal - white thing with a big black "hump" switch - that has some amazingly squirrely delays in it.

When using several at a time, the trick is different speeds, different tone (if you can adjust it - sometimes an EQ in a loop with one delay can work wonders) and varied repeats.

Did I mention using the PodXt and Pocket Pod as well?

Seriously - several units, once you get some experience tweaking them, will spoil you and you'll never use reverb live again.

(One of these days I'll probably pick up a Carbon Copy to add to my "quiver".

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 28 Oct 2010 2:24 am

David: I'm curious to hear how the Carbon Copy compares. Yep, it'll take out a nasty patron, all right!

Jim: Thanks for chiming in again. Do you typically use a rig like that with pedal steel? I think lower settings (in ms.) produce fewer artifacts , but I tend to prefer higher ones. Any further comments on (you can e-mail if you wish):

There is far more detail I could go into regarding tape, analog, "faux analog" and digital delays -

Thanks.

Patrick Strain · Post by **Patrick Strain** » 28 Oct 2010 7:49 am

I use an old Electra rackmount analog delay. It's not on all the time. I just hit it at the end of certain phrases for effect. I will occasionally send it into self oscillation for fun (depending on the crowd).

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 28 Oct 2010 12:46 pm

I found that when playing notes running together, first 3 strings, particularly above the 12th fret, I'm getting some unwanted artifacts - sort of octave down, sort of distorted repeats.

If somebody already answered this, well here it is again. It sounds like you're getting sum and difference tones and the distortion is happening because the notes that are generating them aren't exactly in tune. I used to get them, on occasion, with my Super Pro that had EMG pickups. What was the solution? I never really figured it out. Sometimes it was amp-specific, because I wasn't using effects, sometimes I could minimize it by playing more carefully or playing different notes and if that didn't work, I tried to incorporate what was happening to what I was playing. And sometimes it would happen when I was playing into a cascade of H-3000s. I used the EMGs, not because I like the way they sounded, which I didn't, but because they could cut through three H-3000s and still sound like a steel guitar.

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 30 Oct 2010 7:51 am

I tried out the Memory Boy and Carbon Copy analogue delays; both yielded similar results.
There is still some of the lower octave artifact issue, although perhaps not as pronounced (I didn't try to match every single detail in comparing pedals). As an aside, I have two analogue phasers, and there is no similar issue with them.
So it seems that for my purposes, digital delays are my best choices. However, the Echoczar is far too refined to part with, and it will be used in situations which put it to its best use with my pedal steel. For reference, the Echoczar is buffered when on, and hardwired true bypass when in bypass mode. Any of you who read forums like The Gear Page know the reputation of the Echoczar and its builder (who has been exemplary in his customer service).
Thanks to everyone for your posts.

Stan Knowles NC · Post by **Stan Knowles NC** » 31 Oct 2010 8:02 pm

WOULDN'T TRADE MY BOSS DM-3 ANALOG UNIT!

I NEVER USE REVERB....ONLY MY DM-3!

IT HAS A WARM, WONDERFUL, REVERB-TYPE EFFECT....
AND....HAS NEVER LET ME DOWN!