C6th 3rd KL recommendation?

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 18 Oct 2010 5:58 pm

I'm looking for advice on a useful change for a 3rd KL on the back neck. I have the standard 3rd string lower and another raising my A's a half tone. Both of those I use a lot. I used to have my 3rd KL raising my C's a halftone but i rarely used that What's a real useful 3rd KL setup? Thanx.

Tommy Auldridge · Post by **Tommy Auldridge** » 18 Oct 2010 6:52 pm

I was going to suggest raising strings 3 & 7 to C#..
That's a very useful change. Especially if you have your first string tuned to D. If you already had that, I guess you already know how to use it. I would'nt do without it. I could explain if you need me to. Tommy.......

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 18 Oct 2010 7:42 pm

Tommy Auldridge wrote:I was going to suggest raising strings 3 & 7 to C#..
That's a very useful change. Especially if you have your first string tuned to D. If you already had that, I guess you already know how to use it. I would'nt do without it. I could explain if you need me to. Tommy.......

I agree with Tommy.

Here are some uses for it:

1. When you have pedal 6 engaged, picking strings 3, 4 and 6 and raising the 3rd sring, give you an augmented 7th, used all the time in many genre's of mujsic.

2. Used with pedal 5, you get a great A6th chord and you can use most of the strings.

3. Used with pedal 8, it allows you to change the +9 chord to a straight A7th chord which can be used a lot once your ears begin to find the places where it is needed.

4. If you tune JI, you can use it with the knee lever that raises 4 a half tone, for a better diminished than pedals 5 and 6.

5. The standard C6 setup has never had a major 3rd on strings 3 an 4. Raising the 3rd gives that. I often see Buddy Charlton slant his bar for the lack of a change like this.

Try these dear brother. Once you get used to it, you might find you really like it. If not, then I would suggest you lower the A's to Ab with it. Buddy has had this a long time, Only he does not lower the bottom A. But I would recommend it.

Incidently if you use a D instead of a G as the first string, you might consider pulling that D to a
D# with pedal 8. Buddy started this, and a lot of players like it.

Try it. You can always back off the nylon tuner.

hope this helps,

c.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 18 Oct 2010 9:35 pm

Boy Carl really hits it out the park again! Thanks again for sharing your wisdom sir!

I've got almost every change known to man on the C6 side my D12 (w/10+6), and that's the order of importance I'd go with first also.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 19 Oct 2010 12:53 am

Carl said:

you can use it with the knee lever that raises 4 a half tone, for a better diminished than pedals 5 and 6.

Yes, and if you start with the C7th chord (with strings 7,6,5,4 and the 4th string raised to Bb) and add pedal 5 and the C to C# raise, you get a F#7th chord (which is a perfect tritone substitution for the C7th chord) by picking strings 2,3,4 and 5.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 19 Oct 2010 3:26 am

Herb Steiner has some good suggestions for lever changes on his C6 chord booklet.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 19 Oct 2010 4:29 am

i'll agree that the half tone raise on strings 3 & 7 is a must have
as mentioned in conjunktion w: pedal 5 & moved up 3 frets from the 0 position, you get the voicing as if you had the G on string 1
also rocking back between that half tone raise on string 3 & the half tone lower on the other lever is just like the E to F lever & the E to Eb lever on E9

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Oct 2010 6:50 am

4. If you tune JI, you can use it with the knee lever that raises 4 a half tone, for a better diminished than pedals 5 and 6.

Here is a little ditty*, that comes in handy using the above combination.

1. Start with the 7th pedal down AND raise the 3rd and 4th strings a half tone (also) using appropriate knee levers.

2. Pick strings 3, 4 and 6 twice.

3. Let off the 7th pedal and pick same strings twice.

4. Let off the raising of 3 and 4 and pick the same strings twice.

Herb Remington, Noel Boggs, Juaquine(sp) Murphy, and countless others used this little vamp all the time. But they could only do it using the bar and open strings. Try this yourself starting at the 2nd fret, barring 3 and 4 and open 6th string. Move down to the 1st fret, then all 3 strings open, to hear that little lick.

With the above you can do it in any key at any fret. Praise Jesus for such blessings.

TY Rick

You are most kind dear brother.

Remember that if I do anything that is good, all the credit MUST go to Jesus. For I am not worthy to even call his name, let alone take credit for his gifts.

c.

* Note: You can do this using ONLY the 7th pedal by full pedalling; followed by half pedalling; but the second resolve is often out of tune; and it takes mucho practice to get it to sound right.

Herby Wallace · Post by **Herby Wallace** » 19 Oct 2010 6:51 am

The lever that I would suggest that I use all the time is lowering the 5th string a whole tone from G to F and I also raise the 10th a whole tone with it from C to D. Believe me, I use this a lot. I use it by itself and also in conjunction some of the other floor pedals as there are quite a few chord voicings available with this lever. Actually, I use this lever much more than the one that raises the As to Bb, for what it's worth. Also, I'll mention that one of my courses, HWP-201, has a section that shows the uses of this lever and the various chords available.

Herby Wallace

John Swain · Post by **John Swain** » 19 Oct 2010 7:00 am

If you read Eric's question, he stated he already had C-C# change and apparently wanted something different.I'd say the next next most needed KL would be A-Abs..I use it all the time, even as a 5 chord with pedals 5+6 one fret below root chord..C maj7 on fret4 with 6 pedal,open aug ,flat 5 with 5 pedal..BTW..I've had C-C# for 30 years, but since I added 1/2 stop on same KL for 2nd string E9 I've using it less..I see Franklin,Jenigan,and Tommy White get along QUITE Well without it!!!!!I wish I could do it!JS

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Oct 2010 7:10 am

Herby Wallace wrote:The lever that I would suggest that I use all the time is lowering the 5th string a whole tone from G to F and I also raise the 10th a whole tone with it from C to D. Believe me, I use this a lot. I use it by itself and also in conjunction some of the other floor pedals as there are quite a few chord voicings available with this lever. Actually, I use this lever much more than the one that raises the As to Bb, for what it's worth. Also, I'll mention that one of my courses, HWP-201, has a section that shows the uses of this lever and the various chords available.

Herby Wallace

Amen Herby!

Try this folks if you have this lever that Herby speaks of:

1. Pick strings 3, 5 and 8 twice

2. Engage the 5th pedal and pick those strings twice.

3. Let off pedal 5 and engage Herby's knee lever and pick 'em again. A great little vamp.

A very common resolve used by big bands forevah!

Thanks Herby. Love ya man! You have given us much.

You are blessed. Praise our dear Lord.

c.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Oct 2010 7:12 am

The C to C# [1/2 tone raise] and A to Ab [1/2 tone lower] get used a lot on my guitars. But, I've got to try this interesting 5 and 10 change that Herby suggests. Thanks for that tip.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 19 Oct 2010 7:42 am

Before you ditch the C to C# change here's page full of background on it:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab13.html

And another page with 12 great uses for it:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab8.html

I've got some modern sounds that can be played with the A to Ab change and I'll post those soon as I find them!

Greg

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 19 Oct 2010 8:48 am

Wow, I am just floored by all the great responses! Hey,Herbie, your C6th books are the greatest. I still go to them.

But, ouch, now I'm like a kid in a candy store. So many choices. I should mention that I do use a D on the top. The reason I didn't care for the 3rd string raise was because, foolish me, I thought the biggest change that's good for is, when combined with the 5 pedal, to give one the "lost G" back three frets up. Now I read there is much more to
It. And then there's Herbie's recommendation. And others, too! Sometimes When I read about steels for sale with a large number of knee levers I get to dreaming how great that would be. Can't get enuff of 'em for that back neck.

So, if you were on a desert island and only had 3 knee levers on your C6th, what would they be?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Oct 2010 10:23 am

Only 3?

Lower 3 to B

Raise 4 to Bb

raise 3 and 7 to a C#

Only 4?

The above plus:

lower 4 and 8 to Ab

Only 5?

The above plus:

Lower 5 to an F, and lower 2 to a D, IF, I had a G on top. If I had a D on top, lower 5 to an F, and raise 1 to a D#.

And NEVAH look back!

And pick tha "far" out of that thang.

Sadly after 55 yrs of trying I can't.

"But I can (still) dream, can't I?"

c.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 19 Oct 2010 10:52 am

i concur that the G to F on string 5 is quite handy
you get the root in the middle of the chord w: P6
adding As to Ab makes it minor
A to Bb w: is imo indispensable for 11th, minors, & 7th chords
i lower my Es to Eb which offer a minor 7 chord w: the As to Bb
edited : my set up for the tambien (time being)
LKL : G to F on 5
LKV : C to C# on 3 & 7
LKR : E to Eb on 2 & 5
RKL : C to B on 3
RKR : A to Bb on 4 & 8
since i ran out of levers, i put A to Ab on 4 & 8 on P4

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 19 Oct 2010 11:42 am

The 3 highest priority lever changes:
Lower the 3rd string to B.
Raise the 4th string to Bb.
Raise the 3rd and 7th strings to C#.

As for which levers to put them on, you want to be able to use the Bb and C# changes together.
It's also easier to have the B and C# changes on different knees, so you can go smoothly between them without the C in between. It can be done on the same knee, but it's a lot harder to do it smoothly.
You don't really need to use the B and Bb changes together, so they can be on the same knee.
I've got the C# change on LKL, the B change on RKL, and the Bb change on RKR, and it works well.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 19 Oct 2010 2:21 pm

Don't forget that you can easily tune your 4th pedal to raise to Bb instead of B and free up another knee lever.
The desert island just got better.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Oct 2010 2:51 pm

That is true Danny, if'n ya don' mind using both feet to engage it with pedal 6. Which some of us use all the time.

c.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Oct 2010 2:55 pm

Eric Philippsen wrote:So, if you were on a desert island and only had 3 knee levers on your C6th, what would they be?

[Would I have a solar powered amp

]

String 4 raise A to B w/a half stop for Bb

String 3 raise C to C#

String 3 lower C to B

As of right now, these are what I would choose...pending the Herby change that I'm going to try presently.

Martin Johannesson · Post by **Martin Johannesson** » 20 Oct 2010 12:38 am

Here's what I would chose if I only had 3 levers on C6:

1. 3 string C -> C#

2. 5 string G -> F & 10 string C -> D

3. 4 string A -> A# & 3 string C -> D (Hughey change I use all the time)

Most people would of course lower 3 string C -> B first choice but as I see it, and for my needs it isn't really neccesary if I only had 3 levers. I never (almost) use that change when playing single notes and for chords you have pedal 4 & 7 to get that note in every position. I'm also very comfortable to use both feet on the pedals since I have the A -> Ab (string 4 & 8 ) change on floor pedal 9 and use that change a lot in conjunction with especially pedal 5 & 6 but also with pedal 4 where I splittune to get a true Bb on strings 4 & 8 when pressing both pedal 4 with left foot and pedal 9 with right foot.

My setup:

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