why have a single with a pad?

[Stephen Cordingley]

Could someone please tell me (or direct me to a previous thread) on why so many players have a single neck with a pad ...
I've heard breezy responses ("to rest your arm on") and negative comments ("it leads to bad technique") but I assume there must be some really good reason to have one...?
(I've never tried one. So far I find an S10 to be more snug and comfortable than a double, where I have to reach a little awkwardly over the nearer neck. Is it just a "getting used to the feel" thing?)
Thanks

[CrowBear Schmitt]

one can get bad technique from any model Stephen
the pad obviously offers comfort & a better position for the arms
one is better off resting the part of the arm closer to the elbow than resting the wrist
some prefer the pad cause they got the cheese slicer permanently marked on their arms from havin' a D10

[Tony Glassman]

I would never by a single-on-double guitar. The lure of a single neck guitar to me is the weight reduction compared to a D-10. Also I think the pad does lead to "lazy arms" and is a source of friction during arm movement.....on the other hand a SD is (in most cases) more stable.

[Lem Smith]

One, it gives you the extra width of a D10 body without the extra weight of the mechanical parts, keyhead, necks, etc... which is I think is the reason Lloyd G. came up with the idea to begin with. Also, if you want to add extra knee levers to your E9th tuning, you have more room underneath an SD10 than an S10.

I'm 6'2" tall, and large framed and I find it feels more comfortable to me having the extra width of an SD10. I have read where some have said the tone was better on a SD10/D10 than a single neck, but that part I'm not so sure about, because I have heard some S10's that had superb tone, and I've also heard some SD10/D10's that weren't so hot.

[Matthew Warman]

I think it's partly down to things like weight, what copedent and most of all personal preferences. Some like a pad, others like theirs without...I've played on several S10s with pad and without, and I like them without; for a more compact size, nice weight and most of all I like to get right up close to the fingerboard.

[Erv Niehaus]

An SD-10 has a sturdier feel to it than an S-10.
It just sits more solid.

[Mark van Allen]

Stability is a factor. I think there's a lot to be said for the similarity in basic tone to a doubleneck of the same construction. I've owned an S10 Emmons that sounded amazing, but in my experience various SD-10s sounded more similar to their D10 cousins.
The Pad fills up the space, and is nice to lean on between songs. Kind of like the back rest on a seat.

[George McLellan]

I have an S10 and D10. I think Erv might agree with me about stability. If you are a "slammer" on the knee levers, it will move. If you "press" the knee levers there is little if any movement on my S10 Williams.

As for comfort or whatever you might prefer, I think it's what you get used to. I play which ever of my guitars the gig calls for. The S10 (which is keyless) has IMHO, great tone and is very light. My D10 weighs more and has the tone I prefer also.

S10 has a "True-tone" pickup and the D10 has 10-1's on both necks and is "keyed".

I firmly believe that the pickup makes a big differance as to the sound/tone of a guitar. I didn't like the original pickups in my D10 so went with 10-1's for a more mellow tone - at least to my ear. There is a definate differance in the sound of my D10 and S10 even tho they are both Williams 400 series.

Geo

[Stu Schulman]

To add some confusion to this thread my Desert Rose guitar is in between a D and a S body width,very comfy with a small pad,I don't think that my arms ever touch the pad while I'm playing.

[Bill Moran]

Stu: Who came up with that color combo ??

[Stu Schulman]

Bill,I did must have looked at a couple of thousand mica samples on the net until I found that one,Chuck Back made the white pad,Trying to get that retro diner look.

[Tony Glassman]

An SD-10 has a sturdier feel to it than an S-10.
It just sits more solid.

Erv, the Zum S-12 endplates are flared(?) to allow for a wider leg stance, which is much sturdier than most non-loafer single neck guitars.

[Ryan Barwin]

The double body probably has less cabinet drop than a single body because it's a lot more solid.

I don't get why SD-10's are criticized for causing bad technique when D-10's aren't.

Stu, I like the look of your Desert Rose...really tacky, but in a very cool retro way.

[Dave Grafe]

It is not an easy thing to mount OR play a multitude of knee levers on a single-wide body, the extra cabinet gives room for mounting as well as putting them where the knees can easily reach them.

[John Billings]

No pads for me. When I'm not playing, I rest my hands in my lap. I don't like to have to reach out further than is necessary. My '74 ShoBud S-10 has 6 knee levers. And I don't have to make big movements to get to any of them. Very comfortable. I also see no reason that an S-10 should be less "sturdy" than a SD-10. That doesn't make logical sense to me. If you're a lever banger, the extra weight may make the guitar move around less on the floor, but that's not "sturdier," just heavier.

[Brett Day]

My Jackson BlackJack Custom is an SD-10 with a pad and it's very comfortable for me and what I do is keep my right hand on the pad while waitin' to play and I keep the bar on the strings so it'll be ready when I'm gettin' ready to play. I've been able to pick a lot faster on the Jackson somehow.

Brett

[C Dixon]

The double body probably has less cabinet drop than a single body because it's a lot more solid.

I don't get why SD-10's are criticized for causing bad technique when D-10's aren't.

Stu, I like the look of your Desert Rose...really tacky, but in a very cool retro way.

I could not agree more.

My reasons:

1. A better sound

2. More mass, more stability

3. 8 Pedals and trying to mount 9 knee levers on a single neck, could be a nightmare that would cause me not to play a single neck. If there were no knee levers, then that might be a different story. Note the following photo:




Note: while this guitar did not have 9 knee levers, my present one does. Notice all that "DEELICIOUS" space for knee levers and the freedom amongst the pullrods to make changes. Onlyst way tah fly in mah book.

4. I used anything I could find on my D-10's to keep from cutting the bottom of my right arm on the C neck; not to mention rusting of its strings from persperation, so I am used to the feeling of a pad under my arms when going to my S-12 on double body with pad.

I admit that my short height (5' 7") creates this dilemma, that many do not have. And even legs cut down does little to solve my short upper body. I hate tall people!! NO I do NOT, I love everyone, really! Jesus told us to. Even our enemies.

5. While I own and have played a D-10 for 40 yrs, I abhor needing a change on E9th available only on C6, and vice versa, when playing most songs and tunes I play. Thus: I am not really satisfied with playing anything but a universal. And the above then aids me tremendously.

The ONLY reason I play my Emmmons LeGrande III, is because of its sound. If not for that, I would not even consider it.

6. I like the location of the top neck on a D-10 and I do NOT like the location of the bottom neck. I feel it cramps my arms. Thus the S-12 on a D-12 (or 12-10 prefered) body WITH pad is a blessing to me.

Note: I do NOT like an S-12 on a D-10 body, but I must accept it, if I buy the new Mullen G2, because they do not offer it otherwise; as far as I can tell. Which does not make sense to me, but...............anyway

7. Changing setups is a snap with 8 and 9 on a Double wide body (with pad of course).

8. It is easy to mount accessories also on the back portion. I love this feature. Note the photo:




My present guitar has 8 pedals.

9. Mentally speaking changing from my D-10 to the S-12 on a D12-10 (and vice versa) body feels better. Because the positions of my whole body in almost all respects remains the same.

10. I believe wide bodies are esthetically more pleasing to the eye. But this may be because I am used to them; not to mention that Buddy plays one HeeHee!

C.

[John Billings]

Carl,
I always enjoy your posts, as you're very innovative. I can see why an S-10 would not be suitable for you. I'd like to discuss your first two items;
"1. A better sound

2. More mass, more stability "

Sound is a pretty personal judgement, and I haven't seen any real proof about such a subjective opinion. I'm not sure if that could even be tested realistically. My two ShoBud S-10s sound fabulous, and better than my old ShoBud D-10. It seems to me that an SD-10, with it's foam-filled pad, and your arms resting on it, would tend to greatly reduce any extra body resonance that the extra wide shelf might produce. But perhaps not. The endplates are much wider, but I can't see where that would amount to more stability. It seems to me that the wider endplates, and the wider shelf would actually make the guitar less stable, and allow more flexing than a narrower guitar. Usually, the longer you make something, the less stable, and more prone to flexing, it is.
What do you think?

[C Dixon]

Carl,
I always enjoy your posts, as you're very innovative. I can see why an S-10 would not be suitable for you. I'd like to discuss your first two items;
"1. A better sound

2. More mass, more stability "

Sound is a pretty personal judgement, and I haven't seen any real proof about such a subjective opinion. I'm not sure if that could even be tested realistically. My two ShoBud S-10s sound fabulous, and better than my old ShoBud D-10. It seems to me that an SD-10, with it's foam-filled pad, and your arms resting on it, would tend to greatly reduce any extra body resonance that the extra wide shelf might produce. But perhaps not. The endplates are much wider, but I can't see where that would amount to more stability. It seems to me that the wider endplates, and the wider shelf would actually make the guitar less stable, and allow more flexing than a narrower guitar. Usually, the longer you make something, the less stable, and more prone to flexing, it is.
What do you think?

Hi John,

Yes sound is almost entierly "subjective". In fact sound ONLY occurs really in the minds of people, and select animals. When one analyzes how moving air can end up in a person's brain, it is NO wonder most husbands do not hear a thang their wives say and vice versa

And this of course is true with EVERY aspect of what happens when a speaker in an amp pushes air oscillations, that reach a persons ear/brain.

Having said that, I sense that any time I play a single body instrument as apposed to a double body, that the double body one sounds fuller and more resonant.

And indeed this CAN be tested with a group of players engaged in a triple blind test. And who knows, the test might prove that it is hogwash. In my case, there is probably little doubt of that!

As to stability, I was refering to a stable guitar on the floor, not in the way you thought. Sorry, I did not make that clear dear brother.

As to the pad absorbing sound waves and peventing it from going to the PU, I am almost positive that does not happen. Since the pad on the guitar I pictured, was not fixed, and I had it on and off often, and sensed no change in sound.

Now the mass of say Hard Rock maple being not quite doubled in a double body respects a single body, would cause more resonance to be passed to the PU IMO.

But hey? Who in heaven's name am I. For my Uncle once said when I was 5 yrs old,

"You'll NEVER turn out to be NUTHUN!" He was NOT kidding either. For some reason he hated me.

And I expect he is right AND probably justified in his animosity towards me, since that is not an uncommon scenario all my life.

Thanks dear brother for your thoughts. "'Preciate it!". If we both end up in the same place, let's talk more about this, under the shade of an old oak tree, as we sip an ice cold glass of mother's Iced Tea. I would like that.

"Own too?!

c.

[James Marlowe]

I've been playing double body guitars for most of my so called pickin' career.
Recently I bought an S10 as a second guitar to leave set up at church. Well, I struggled with that guitar from day one. And the reason I found is because the levers were too far away. When I got close enough to use the levers, I was all over the pedals. My ankles aren't what they use to be and don't flex very well. Between that handicap and my big feet, I had to give up the S body idea.

[Stu Schulman]

Carl,I always learn from your posts...you are an absolute gem!

[Tony Glassman]

Carl,

- I've noticed that my S-10 P/P sounds slightly better than my D-10.....same w/ my Zums. I always attributed it the lack of a joint between the two decks. Also, it seems that lighter 6-strings (e.g. Teles, Strats) sound better than their heavier counterparts.

- Placing the knee levers near the S-10 rear apron makes them easier to reach w/o the feeling of crowding the pedals.

- Bottom line for me, comparable tone....less weight.

[C Dixon]

Carl,

- I've noticed that my S-10 P/P sounds slightly better than my D-10.....same w/ my Zums. I always attributed it the lack of a joint between the two decks. Also, it seems that lighter 6-strings (e.g. Teles, Strats) sound better than their heavier counterparts.

- Placing the knee levers near the S-10 rear apron makes them easier to reach w/o the feeling of crowding the pedals.

- Bottom line for me, comparable tone....less weight.

I hear ya Tony,

It reminds me of a very old saying,

If a rooster can pull a boxcar, hitch eeemUP!

Translated, that means, if it works for ya, putt your hand on the plow, set your sights dead straight ahead, and NEVAH Evah look back!

Thanks for your comments dear brother,

c.

[Tommy Gibbons]

'cause Lloyd did!!!

lol, that's the only reason.

TommyG...

[b0b]

For me, a wide body guitar is more comfortable to play because the knee levers are further back. The pad is nice, but not necessary. I used to play an SD-12 that just had a flat rear shelf (formica mica finish). It was more comfortable than a regular S-12.

My S-8 Desert Rose is a 1.5 body with a small pad. Without the pad, I think the lacquer finish would get scratched. The pad is comfortable as a wrist rest when I'm not playing. People who don't play steel tell me that it looks cool, too. <center>
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