Seattle: cheapskates of steel

[Ben Jones]

Couple great ads on craigs list for steel players and i was wondering if anyone I knew took these great jobs.

1st was band that had a big gig at bumbershoot coming up. They wanted a steeler to record on their EP and meet with them 3 times before hand. The recording was being done at a world class recording studio and bumber shoot is a huge well paying gig. Your pay for three meetings with them and a full day of recording? $25.

2nd was a guy who wanted you to come to his house twice a week and give him lessons. No pay offered.

so who is the lucky seattle player who signed up for these?

[Mark Dershaw]

Can you at least bring a tip jar?
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Stu Schulman]

Mark,I would bring a tip jar to that guy's house.

[Ben Jones]

suddenly the tip jar dont look too bad does it?


the one where they wanted to meet three times before hand and then use you for a full day for $25 was the one that really puzzled me.

they had money for a "world class" studio and were playing the biggest annual festival gig in town, but the steel part wasnt even worth a couple cds to them.

[Mark Dershaw]

The expensive studio and popular festival are most likely untruths. I've been around local music scenes enough to know when somebody's full of it. I once had a local artist try to convince me that he was booked to open up for Tim McGraw and Faith Hill. I know I don't look like I was born yesterday!

[Pete Burak]

Here's one in our neck of the woods:
http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/msg/1895005399.html

[Elton Smith]

Sounds to me like a throw together deal.Some guy got the gig,now needs a band to play it.I guess the other guy want learn to play.

[Ben Jones]

They are booked for the festival gig, I checked, tho it IS the worst imagineable time slot (noon). They have a glossy vid of them playing in front of what appears to be a couple thousand people. i guess theyre just kids who could use some management or a clue or whatever. It just seems so odd that they value their record less than say... big macs and fries for the band or whatever you wanna spend that measly $25 bucks on. One of the three practice sessions, they wanted you to meet with their producer...what the hell are they paying their "producer" with?...bubble yum?

The gig Pete posted sounded good, I might drive down to portland for that one. Its only three hours drive each way for that easy $50.

[Mark Dershaw]

That studio gig in Portland would be a breeze since you already know the chords.

[Bill Bassett]

You know, if a band really has gigs like Bumbershoot and some fancey recording date set up, you'd think they, or at least someone in the organization would already know enough people who would know enough people who would know a steel player.
Craigslist would not be an option that comes to mind.

BDBassett
Rimrock AZ

[Jim Pitman]

I hear one "pays to play" in many venues in LA.

[Ben Jones]

You know, if a band really has gigs like Bumbershoot and some fancey recording date set up, you'd think they, or at least someone in the organization would already know enough people who would know enough people who would know a steel player.
Craigslist would not be an option that comes to mind.

BDBassett
Rimrock AZ

good point Bill. They should at least have a manager one would think right?. Im not sure the rock or indie crew knows anything about steel or steel players tho,even if they did have management or a decnt producer.

My friend is a famous producer (he prefers engineer)here in Seattle, and he runs a studio here. He does maybe a dozen or more albums a year, travels the world recording bands, has several gold records, he was the big 'grunge' producer, Soundgarden, Nirvana, Mudhoney, etc

he was at our gig the other night. I told him if he ever needed a steel player, that now he knew a good one he could use. he looked at me kind of puzzled as if he had never even thought to use a pedal steel and said, "that doesnt come up very often, I guess mostly because peple just dont think of it" and I could tell he meant it never comes up. I told him "well they should think about it, next time you get a singer song writer type in there lemme show ya what can be done"..and he kind of had this look of "yeah, thats not a bad idea"..or at least thats what I like to imagine that look was

I aksed if he had ever recorded a pedal steel and he said no, thought about it for a second and then said, "but it comes out of an amp right?". I mentioned the volume pedal and he said he'd probably slap a compressor on that.

My point is , heres one of the most famous rock producers in the world, he's been working for over 20 years, 100s of bands have been thru his studio literally, and he's never had a pedal steel in there, never recorded one elsewhere, and really has never given any thought to how it could be used. as he said, it just doesnt come up very often (ever) in that world.

[Stu Schulman]

Ben,If the guy's name is Anthony I just found his bidness card.

[Les Anderson]

I hear one "pays to play" in many venues in LA.

I have been the victim of that one. What irked me the most about this little move that ended my days with this club gig was that this pay to play guy was faking it by using others recordings when doing his solos and club owner couldn't have cared less. He just plain could not do a solo.

Now back to the thread, if anyone has to advertise on Graig List to find a musician for back up on a CD, something is very wrong. Most reputable studios pay per track recorded.

[Ben Jones]

Ive gotten some great jobs and ended up being in a couple good bands from Craigs List ads. I've actually made some money from CL. Craigs list is a logical place for these people who know very little about pedal steel, let alone anyone who owns or plays one, to ask for someone to provide 'that sound' that they've admired in other peoples recordings. Im not too good for these jobs and would do many more of them if the rate was even remotely reasonable, or for free if the music was fantastic and I had an inkling I could become a full member of the band (maybe once a year or less i find one of those opportunities).

whats not so logical is the idea that anyone would do 12 hours or more of work for $25, or haul your guitar to some guys home twice weekly for free

Its not so much about the money, i dont think I'm that great or a pro or anything and I need moreexperience. Its more about them respecting my time and effort to help THEM out.

[Lee Baucum]

both songs are in G. just want you to record if you sound good. i have mics and a pc set up. just come over. one song is an original and the other is by a friend of ours.
one is just C-G-D-D and the other is G-C-G-C....D-C-G, D-C-G or something like that. should be a piece of cake for you to make $50. im ten mins

Pete - It looks like maybe that CL ad was posted by GCDC...a very famous band.

[Bill Howard]

Here is the E Mail I sent Portland Guy
Eric your ad was posted in the Pedal Steel Guitar Forum

WHY? They are poking Fun at your ad.

A session pedal steel player like Mike johnson or Paul franklin gets about 2-3000.00 and afternoon. Mike is the Steel player on Country amily Reunion.

Example it took me 10 tears to get good enough for anyone to want to hear me of hard practice. My emmons dbl neck cost over 5000.00 a volume pedal is about 300.00 these days. a BJ Stroud bar is over 100.00,any Steel Amp is 800.00 up this doesent include any effects which if you want a good sound you need, my delay is over 100.00 and not done yet my Steel seat I sit on which you need to give the same playing height all of the time

285.00 for that.almost done, a tuner yep can't use a Garden varuety on a Pedal Steel.

a Korg or Conn Strb flip is about 300.00. of course cords don't cost much but you need them also ok here we have it

Steel 5000.00(or more)

VP 300.00

Bar 110.00

Amp 800.00

Effect 120.00

Seat 285,00

Tuner 300.00

Cords 60.00

Strings 15.00 E-9th set

______________________

6990.00 Total Of course then the player has to take it apart take it to car

carry it in to Studio put it up Play GOOD enough for you and if you don't like them?/

They get to put it and carry their 7 grand back to car put gas in it carry steel amp seat etc BACK into house.... Phone been ringing off the Hook Eric?
I hope you like this I thought it was fitting:)

[Eric West]

Well you know, stopping by a house, plugging in and recording a couple tracks on Protools til they've got enough to mix down and going away with 50$ is better than playing somewhere all night for tips I'd think.

I've done tons of the "drive by" stuff and made from 50$ to 500$ for some pretty undemanding folks. Mostly kind and considerate, and none of them wanted their money back or my SS#..

I hear what the OP is saying though.

Sometimes it's pretty ridiculous what people think you're gonna do for darn near nothing...

I did a three hundred dollar gig with some "tribute" people and rehearsed two nights and one night for the gig. Other than trying to get Shania T out of my ears, and refusing to spend a night on Garth stuff it was about right.

Stonewall J the other month was just a CD and agreement on which songs we could wing well. About an hour of rehearsal on the stage before the gig, and 3 bills for two hours.



WTF/Это то, что он является (It is what it is..)



EJL

[Barry Blackwood]

Ben, first you say this,

Im not too good for these jobs and would do many more of them if the rate was even remotely reasonable, or for free if the music was fantastic and I had an inkling I could become a full member of the band (maybe once a year or less i find one of those opportunities).

then you say this,

Its not so much about the money, i dont think I'm that great or a pro or anything and I need moreexperience.

and then you say this.

whats not so logical is the idea that anyone would do 12 hours or more of work for $25, or haul your guitar to some guys home twice weekly for free

The last statement would seem to contradict the other two.

[Ben Jones]

well you left out an important sentence in the middle quote. I need to feel that they respect my time and effort and them offering $25 for 12 hours work tells me they do not.

your also selectively highlighting words from my other quotes, but I can sorta see how ithey might be seen as contradictory.

I will try and explain a lil better and as concisely as i can.

I'm not a pro player. I need more experience recording. For those reasons I am willing to take low paying studio jobs. If the music is fantastic, is something I want to be a part of, and I think there is any way I can weasle my way into being a full band member once they hear and fall in love with the pedal steel, I will do it for free if they ask because this results in more paying work and fullfillment musically (live playing is what i really love). If its a band where i dont care about their music or perhaps even dislike their music, I need to be compensated for my time, but am still willing to tdo it to gain experience AND to help them out. Since I am not a seasoned vet I only ask enough payment that I dont feel used or disrespected for my efforts on their behalf. I would have done their studio gig with no prior meetings for $50(tho I prefer more) and told them so, but them demanding I meet with them 3 times prior and accept $25 for that and the full day of recording, was telling me they did not respect my time or effort or gear, and also that they did not take their work serioulsy enough to sacrifice a couple pizzas for an awesome pedal steel track and thats not something I wanna be subjected to. i dont wanna work with people like that.

The guy wanting free lessons twice a week we dont even need to discuss do we? I might as well go wash his car twice weekly for free. I'd do the lessons for free for a friend , maybe even for a forumite I had conversed with but never met, but not for a complete stranger.

[Barry Blackwood]

To me that translates to, "If I like (the gig) I'll do it for free, and if not, I'm charging." Are we on the same page now, or am I missing some other subtlety?

[Steve Spitz]

Unfortunately,you have to be careful about giving your services for cheap or free. You run the risk of becoming everyones favorite "cheap date". You don`t want to become known as the guy who will do it just to gain the experience, when you get past the point of needing to do it for the experience. Bands talk. When band A asks band B what you charged to record, and they found you did it for little or nothing, you may not have as much leverage to ask a respectable rate, even if your playing has improved since the freebie. It may be difficult to explain " I did band B for free because I really dig their music, but you guys...not so much."
That being said, I can understand doing it for the experience when starting out.
Here is what I do. Before any discussion of your fee, talk about what is the objective of the session. Usually, the final objective is for them to have a product that will help them get work,meaning generate revenue. It makes it easier for you to suggest that because your helping them achieve that end (making money) it makes sense you should be compensated.
Thinking back to my first session, I should have asked for more toppings, or at least extra cheese.
Ironically, I still hear that session on a local jukebox. It helped them somewhat, I got pizza and beer.

[Ben Jones]

To me that translates to, "If I like (the gig) I'll do it for free, and if not, I'm charging." Are we on the same page now, or am I missing some other subtlety?

yes I am afraid its a little more subtle than that. I said if the music was fantastic and I wanted to be a part of the live band I might do it for free if they asked me to do it for free, and I said earlier that happened less than once a year. To me that translates to a little more than "if I like the gig I'll do it for free". Its no huge deal tho....Two really cheap and demanding ads on the same day crinkled my underoos enough for me to start this thread I guess, what can i say?

[Barry Hyman]

I sometimes perform for free, but you have to pay me if you want me to come to rehearsals...

And the free lessons? I'd take a tip jar and a Taser!

[Igor Fiksman]

Here's a situation. The band wants you to record a couple of tracks on their album as the guest player. They are fantastic song writers, you really enjoy their material and believe in their potential, you may even be a good friend with one or two members, but the guys are broker than broke, they sank all they had into that record and just can't compensate you right then. They ask for your help with an IOU of sorts. You do the session. The band goes on to break out pretty well, ends up playing huge stages, big festivals, even some TV appearances. They invite you to do a few guest appearances with them and pay you for each one, even flying you out to a couple of them - all expenses payed. They give you 50 cd's as the token of their appreciation. You use these as business cards and get some fantastic paying gigs - hell, the name recognition of that band alone now gets all kinds of doors open for you - "I played on X' band's Y' cd" - tends to seal the deal on more than a few of them. Turns out to be a pretty good investment for a couple of free hours recording. Of course that only pans out if you really know how to pick winners.
Isn't that kind of an idea you had in mind, Ben?