Playing for tips - it can't be right

[Ken Byng]

Every time that I visit the USA (one of my favourite pursuits) I am always perplexed by the number of singers and musicians who play behind a tip jar. This is quite widespread and not confined to just one town or city. Over here in the UK, if you play in a bar or club then you agree a fee and that is the end of the matter. Playing for tips is just not a consideration. I suppose it is a culture thing.

I have seen some pretty good acts playing for tips in the States who would do really well in the UK, and when I speak to them in their break and ask them why they are playing for tips they usually say "Well that's just how it is". (One such player was Buzz Evans with Bo Porter at The Broken Spoke in Austin, Tx). I think that some of your bar and club owners are on to a very good thing. They are taking absolutely no risk at all on providing entertainment. The musicians are the ones taking the risk.

I'd be interested to hear from players who play only for tips to get their take on it.

[richard burton]

The advantage of playing for tips is that there ain't no paper trail....

[Bob Hoffnar]

I play for tips sometimes and its a matter local economics more than cultural differences. I played at a bar thursday night that is very small and only sells beer. It is also a famous and beloved music venue in Austin. The band brought in a decent wage from the tip jar that I'm sure was at least what the bar made in beer sales. In my personal experience the tip jar is a viable economic instrument in many situations.

[Bill McCloskey]

Last night I went to hear a jazz singer play in a small (and I do mean small) club in the east village of new york. She and her pianist played to a group of less than 10 people. The club itself is facing eviction. She played great, the tip jar went around (and they did say it was customary to leave at least $5. I left $10 and I bought the woman's 2 cd's for $20). This same woman has played The Iridium, one of New York's best jazz clubs, twice this year, where they certainly charge a cover. She wants to get out and sing. It is just the reality here in Manhattan.

[Bob Hickish]

I play for tips sometimes and its In my personal experience the tip jar is a viable economic instrument in many situations.

Your right on Bob
I think its called Capitalism -- not at all culture
when you can get a few pickers together , walk into a Bar / shop - a feed store , and set up -- play you music - have fun and make a few bucks all at the same time -- life is good .

[Bill Terry]

I think I know the bar Bob is talking about, maybe not.. but there is one place where the tip jar is the agreed upon deal, but the bar owner 'primes' it with a 100 bux or so.. I'd play this particular venue cheap anyway, it's always a fun place, with a lot of people who come to hear music, not some meat market.

[Bill Bassett]

Hey, I did pretty well as a teenager "buskin'" in the London Underground tubes back in 1971. An open guitar case and a few tunes. I'd always be able to buy dinner and a pint.

These days, I prefer my pay in a lump sum as we pack up our gear.

Bill Bassett
Rimrock AZ

[Stuart Legg]

Ken, Ok! So your drunks are classier than our drunks.

[Ken Byng]

Ken, Ok! So your drunks are classier than our drunks.

No Stuart - just more drunk.

[Olli Haavisto]

I`ve seen John Hughey, Buck Reid and Johnny Hiland behind a tip jar in Nashville.
Keeping up their chops between tours , maybe ?

[Eric West]

Never done it, but it can't be good for ones' self image.

At least it would be for mine.

EJL

[Cal Sharp]

I suppose it is a culture thing.

Canadians are notorious for not tipping waitresses here. Most of the bands I work with have a tip jar, but we get a base pay from the club owner, too. What we say is, "An unpaid request is merely a suggestion".

[Ray Montee]

If'n a bunch of musicians wanted to gather informally at a local city park on a bright sunny day or two, along with their families....... to picnic, pick and grin, I'd be all for it. What better enjoyment might there be. Great FUN!

However, when a handful of musicians 'prostitute' themselves in a commercial venue to play for hand-outs, I see it sorta like the guy sitting on a downtown street corner with his cardboard sign and banging away on his g'tar for nickel and dimes.

I've always felt it was the musicians themselves, or the wanna-be's, that were doing themselves the greatest injustice.

Tip jars for "REQUEST's".....seems more than fair and legitimate. It's been going on for years, but
trying to eek out an income from it, GADD!

WHO KNOWS BEST what YOUR 'product' is worth. If it's not worth a rightful wage then it really shouldn't be put before the public.......or should it. I realize no one really cares what my views are, and that's as it should be, but
the individual musician really owes it to himself to hold up his self-image, musically.

[Cal Sharp]

Over the centuries, many outstanding artists, painters and musicians didn't have regular jobs, but were subsidized by the Pope or some family with a lot of power and money, like the Medici family in Italy, for instance, freeing them up to pursue their artistic endeavors without worrying about the rent. In its own small way, the tip jar serves the same purpose.

And yes, playing for tips on Broadway is good for keeping your chops up between tours and sessions.

[Dave Hopping]

Bob Hickish is right.Playing for tips IS capitalism-of the sort practiced "off the books" in the old Soviet Union.A tip jar has always been part of the picture,at least in country music,for a very long time,and it's also true that the venue primed the tip jar back in the day-with the equivalent of one to two hundred dollars per player.That does not happen now,largely due to DUI Enforcement staking out live music venues at closing time.Sensible customers now stay home or drink soda.Less sensible customers have been bankrupted or imprisoned.
The result is we play for tips.

[Alan Brookes]

Ken, Ok! So your drunks are classier than our drunks.

No Stuart - just more drunk.

It's the Imperial Measures that do it. An Imperial Pint is 20 fluid ounces; an American Pint is 16 fluid ounces.
Plus, British and European beers are watered down for sale in the U.S. At their original alcohol content they would be classified as wine in the U.S. and taxed accordingly.
My wife is from an Irish town in Nebraska. When her grandmother came over to England and ordered a pint of Guiness in our local pub she got quite a pleasant surprise. Two imperial pints of Guiness at 9% and she had a smile on her face all evening.

[Jamie Lennon]

The broadway thing is a fun thing to do....especially for practice, meeting up with fellow players etc.

Also the base differs per venue.

Its fun!!!

[Dave Mudgett]

However, when a handful of musicians 'prostitute' themselves in a commercial venue to play for hand-outs, ...

The word 'prostitute' does not belong in this discussion. It is inflammatory and wrong. Nor is playing for tips a 'hand-out', which implies getting something for free. Working musicians are definitely working for their money, no matter who pays them. Do you consider waiters and waitresses who get a significant portion of their income from tips 'prostitutes' looking for a 'handout'? Give me a break.

I also sometimes find it strange to watch some of the world's finest musicians playing for a tip jar, especially on a slow gig. But I wouldn't begin to tell other people how they should deal with making a living as a musician. It's tough enough without some musicians taking pot shots at others. If you don't like it, don't do it. IMHO.

As a practical matter, listeners are always the ones who pay for music in a live setting. The issue is whether or not they pay musicians directly or the club serves as a 'middleman'. If you don't believe this, try playing in a band that gets a flat fee from a club and see how long they let you continue if, in their mind, you don't draw enough to cover what you're paid. Good luck - you're not being paid for your time, but for how much you add to the club's bottom line. That is not new.

Last point. I've never seen a club raid a band's tip jar - I suppose it can happen, but I've yet to see it. But I have certainly seen lots of clubs raid cover charges. At a certain level, paying the band directly through a tip jar is sometimes more honest and can, in the right situation, be more lucrative than getting that 'gratuity' from the club.

My opinions.

[Bob Hoffnar]

The broadway thing is a fun thing to do....especially for practice, meeting up with fellow players etc.

Also the base differs per venue.

Its fun!!!

Its also challenging ! I'm getting my hat handed to me in Austin sitting in a chair where guys like Ricky Davis, Dave Biller, Herb Stiener and Rick Price regularly hold court.

The lower broad scene must be a glorious feeling for a steel player coming up. Think about sitting and learning your craft in the same spot where the music and instrument was born. You guys sitting at home can think whatever you want. You have no idea how powerful that experience can be.

[Cal Sharp]

The word 'prostitute' does not belong in this discussion.

Hey, some of the bands I've worked in got their biggest tips from prostitutes.

The lower broad scene must be a glorious feeling for a steel player coming up. Think about sitting and learning your craft in the same spot where the music and instrument was born.

Yep, it is. Broadway is where I learned to play.

[Bob Hoffnar]

From the full time musician point of view: I get my share of good money gigs and get by fine. The money gigs involve an expectation. I need to play the music I'm being paid for. A low pressure tip jar gig is a chance to try things out and learn. Have a couple beers and hang with your buddys doing what you love best. I have a tip jar gig tonight where I know there are going to call "Ones on the way." So I'll spend the next hour trying to figure out what Ruggs did on the intro and then I get to screw it up on the bandstand in a few hours. What not to love !?

[Olli Haavisto]

Bob,
My thoughts exactly !
We don`t have a tip-jar tradition here but the equivalent would be informal small gigs where falling flat on your face trying out something new is no big deal. To develop, musicians need opportunities to experiment and take risks.
Other gigs pay the rent.

[Dave Mudgett]

Hey, some of the bands I've worked in got their biggest tips from prostitutes.

10-4. btw, I was only reacting to the clearly negative and IMO inflammatory connotation in the earlier post using the terms 'prostitute' and 'hand-out' to describe musicians who play for tips. I make no such value judgments about any of it.

The money gigs involve an expectation. I need to play the music I'm being paid for. A low pressure tip jar gig is a chance to try things out and learn. Have a couple beers and hang with your buddys doing what you love best.

Amen. Always playing to someone else's expectations can be crippling to musical development. There the music biz, and then there's music. Sometimes the intersection is strong, and other times it's minimal.

It's like this in other fields too. It may be hard to imagine, but scientists and engineers do some gigs for the dough, but often wind up doing the stuff they love - development of ideas that don't have obvious immediate commercial potential, theoretical work they think is interesting, and so on - on their own time. Einstein came up with a big chunk of the theory of relativity in his spare time while doing a drudge job examining patents for the patent office.

I would feel very limited doing only the obvious things that give the largest immediate financial rewards. My self-image is not driven at all by how much money I make at a gig, or how much money I make at all, for that matter.

[Danny Bates]

This is the way the nightclub business works here in central CA. Luckily, I have a good gig and I'm not caught up in this game anymore.

A guy buys a club and a musician talks him into paying $450 a night for a 5 piece band. The bar does pretty good because the band is popular and the band calls their friends who spend $50 - $85 a night and tip the band good. The bartender is also happy because he/she is making a minimum of $100 a night in tips. Usually closer to $200.
Even though the bar owner is making money, he soon gets hit on by other musicians who discount the price to $300. The owner hires them thinking he's gonna save $150 a night and stick that money directly into his pocket. This band doesn't have friends that spend money so soon his profit drops and yet he still blames the high cost of the band for the high overhead. The owner calls other bar owners and talks to patrons and finds out about a trio that will work for $150 a night. The band looks popular because the bar is full of people that don't have any money but love to dance... (can you say "linedancers?")

Unfortunately, at the end of the game, the owner gets tired of losing money and eventually sells the bar. A new owner takes over. Rinse repeat.

The moral of this story is to befriend patrons who spend money. Get their email/phone number and let thm know where you're going to be playing.

[Ron Whitfield]

Hey, some of the bands I've worked in got their biggest tips from prostitutes.

Pro's with big tips make the best $...

BTW, just be glad you don't have a band leader that cops all the tip money for himself.