Fender PS112- One of a kind prototype S12 (ala PS210) !!!!

Pedal, lap, Hawaiian, resonator ... anything played with a bar
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basilh
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Post by basilh »

Paul Redmond wrote:Gene Fields told me once that the main reason those two little ears break off the string tuning "sliders" is that people used to wrap the smaller strings around these ears much like a cowboy in an old western movie would wrap his horse's reins around a hitching post. Those ears are merely guides for the strings and were never intended to stand up to the full tension of a string at full pitch. The other reason Gene cited was electrolysis caused by the reaction of the zinc in the Zamac sliders and the nickel in the strings. Yes, replacements must be custom-made. You can install the strings OK even if the ears are missing, but for restoration purists, they should be there.
I have discovered that if you really carefully study the design of the PS210 (and now a PS112), there really isn't any limit on how they can be set up save for their overall length which limits you on pedals as it would with any guitar.
IMO a left-mounted knife-edge changer is just about as good as it gets!!!
PRR
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the changer Paul, the published manual seems to contradict the statement about the string posts. ??


Taken DIRECTLY from the PS-210 manual (Yes I have one).

TUNING MECHANISM

The new tuning mechanism is designed to eliminate excess string length and to provide a faster and more precise method of tuning and string changing
The tuner block(Right end of the instrument from playing position) must be adjusted to top before starting string installation. (See Fig.5) The string should be threaded through the hole in the raise lever (Left of the instrument). (See Fig.6). It is then routed through the slot in the string post. Loop the string around one side of the string post and back through the slot again. (See Fig.7). One loop is sufficient for most strings: However, it is suggested that two loops be used on small unwound strings. The string is then looped under the screw head and upwards through the string post slot. Tighten the screw firmly. Pull string out of slot gently. (Do not kink.) Clip off excess string approximately halfway through slot. (See Fig.8). Sharp end should spring back into slot. Grasp tuner knob with thumb on outside of frame and any finger on the inside and tune string to pitch. Small strings on high tunings should be tuned to pitch gradually.

This procedure will seem awkward at first but will soon prove to be much faster than traditional tuning ways.
--------------===========----------------

Notice the use of UK English spelling in the manual !! , words like "Through.."

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J D Sauser
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Post by J D Sauser »

Thanks for your clarifications, Basil!

Rick Schmidt, I would be interested in the instrument.


... J-D.
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Jim Sliff
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Post by Jim Sliff »

Wow - that's beyond cool. Rick, I doubt I could ever afford it (especially having been laid off recently - I'll probably be selling equipment, unfortunately) but I would really like an opportunity to check it out, shoot some detailed macro pictures and such to add to the Fender Steel Forum archives. It'd also help me with the periodic questions I get regarding these models (Paul Redmond and Baz both did a great job of explaining them several years ago, but nothing compares to "hands-on"). I had a shot at buying a 10-string a while back but it was just beyond my means.

I'm not far away as you know, so if it's not already on its way somewhere please let me know - if I can squeeze in the time I'd love to check it out.

And there's always the word "trade" lurking around corners of my mind....

Jim
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
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1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
Paul Redmond
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Post by Paul Redmond »

Basil - We're both right. True, the manual shows the strings wrapped around the posts. I was merely trying to relate what Gene and others discovered long AFTER the manuals were printed. When I bought mine from Gene in 1988, he specifically explained why NOT to wrap the strings around the posts if I didn't have to, hence my prior post. These few guitars were prototypes and until such an instrument is "field-tested" to some degree, these little glitches don't always rear their ugly heads at first. When I brought home home #11, some of the posts had already deformed and partially cut thru despite the fact that this was a "new" guitar. If one doesn't wrap the strings around the posts, the risk of the string pulling loose all by itself is great...there's really nothing to stop it.
PRR
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basilh
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Post by basilh »

Paul, of course you're correct, the posts on mine (#12) were also damaged, broken or exhibiting sections cut almost completely through.
One thing about the design that I felt was a little problematical was the tuning system, quite difficult to tune the guitar with picks on, as you would have when playing on stage etc.

I also found that the "string gauge/changer travel ratio" was critical as was the tension screw adjustment for the "fingers". I've actually had to have new springs made as the old ones were suffering with metal fatigue..

If you go too heavy with the string gauge you can go beyond the limit of the changer's travel, the length of the tuning screw and it's retaining spring are critical then.

The tone of the guitar is really something to behold, amazingly even string balance and timbre'.
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Gene Fields

Post by William Fraser »

Is Mr. Fields alive ? I bought a Bass recently ,that looked like a fender , with a Tele neck P &Jazz bass p/ups , it was made in the USA so I Googled it , I believe it was an
EMCI , Google stated that it was designed by Mr.GFI ,I could not believe all the designs that were his , he must have worn every hat at Fender & a few other places , the original Starcaster hollow body , Bronco , Pedal Steels , Basses I would love to read more about him ,this steel takes the cake . You just gotta love a guy who is not afraid to go where his Imagination takes him . Bill :whoa:
Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc.
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basilh
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Post by basilh »

He's HERE

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J D Sauser
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Post by J D Sauser »

Here is where it really is:
From: www.gfimusicalproducts.com/Articles/Gen ... rticle.htm
In 1968 I (Gene Fields) was asked to design a new pedal guitar from scratch. The only guidelines I had were to build it better and lighter, and to include knee levers. At that time, a major complaint on pedal guitars was the large 7/8" diameter of the changer fingers, causing a high frequency rattle or singing sound. This was caused by the string vibrating against the finger just in front of the intonation point. To eliminate this required a small radius which would increase string breakage. Most players today have either grown up with this problem or have gotten used to it. Some manufacturers, including G.F.I., have dropped the diameter to 3/4" without a big sacrifice in breakage. The reason I am elaborating this point is because it led to most of the other radical changes as follows.To eliminate this problem I moved the changer to the opposite end of the instrument. This allowed me to use a small diameter bridge, producing a much more solid sound, without the high frequency vibration.

This led to another problem, locating the keys on the right end (from the player) of the instrument would create a shallow angle at the bridge, and sacrifice of sustain and tone. To avoid this meant using something other than keys. This led to a Keyless tuning system used on the P.S. 210, it was not just to be different.After the experimenting with the Keyless system, we discovered more advantages due to the elimination of the excess string length.

a. No movement of string across the nut.

b. Shorter pedal action due to less string length to stretch.

c. More sustain- the section of string inside the key housing vibrates, absorbing energy from the main playing section.

In order to have a tuning knob large enough for good leverage, every other string was mounted in a different row. This allowed the knob to be almost two times the width of the string spacing.The next major obstacle was shaft deflection in the changer. To avoid this I used a flat knife edge plate, similar to my one contribution to the 800 and 2000 Fender pedal guitars. The lowering Lever had a "V" groove to mate with the knife edge plate. The raise lever mated with the lowering lever with the "V" groove system creating a changer with two moving parts per string. All the other linkage was designed to operate on this knife edge principal, with the exception of the bell crank and the pedal. By using the knife edge system, it was not too difficult to add a shift system that would transfer all pedals and knee levers from one neck to the other, offering 9 pedals per neck, up to 4 could be knee levers as long as the total was nine. This was accomplished with one moving part. It worked well as long as you did not shift while pressing a pedal. If this happened, it would not shift. However, if you released the pedal and started over, it worked fine. The neck switch was operated by the shift lever. The pickups were designed with 12 magnets for 10 strings. The two outer magnets were closer than the rest, this pushed the magnetic field a little higher plus, the coil was a little longer. It was my belief, that the Ist and last string of a pickup did not have the same environment as the strings in the middle. The end results proved this to be true, however, it was often mistaken for a 12 string pickup. These pickups were wound much heavier than the earlier Fender pedal guitar pickups, creating a fuller tone while retaining good high frequency response.

The first model of this instrument was Hydraulic. A 36" cylinder was used to drive a H" with a mechanical lever, to drive the larger cylinder, by using a large cylinder to drive a smaller one. The unused portion becomes a reservoir, this allows a closed system-to be used for each pedal. No master cylinder needed. Less connections - Less leakage. The system worked well as the weight of your foot and a small amount of added pressure would move 10 strings. This system was dropped for two reasons, one being cost. This was 1969 and our cost then, would have been $400.00. For us to make a profit, and the dealer to make a profit, the price of the instrument would doubled from it's original list price of $1500.00. The second reason was not knowing how to run pedal rods and knee levers through the bottom of an oil pan without having leaks. As no hydraulic system is leak proof forever, and some musicians like to wear white occasionally.

The hydraulic frame was all welded aluminum, with milled end plates welded to aluminum angle rails front and back, to support a maple neck. I was so impressed with the tone of this combination, I wanted to use it in the production model. I mounted the bridge directly to the frame, the maple neck was then mounted tight against the bridge. The nut was mounted on the maple neck. This allowed me to use the aluminum frame for tone coloring while the bridge to nut length was controlled by the maple neck.

The changer was operated by set screw bars similar to the multi-cord. However, the system that pulled the set screw bars was held in a fixed plane and could not pull off center, a major problem with the multi-cord, was on the first pedal guitar ever designed. The Harden Pros. Patent was issued in 1932. This set screw bar system allows up to 10 strings per pedal and as many raise and lower positions as there pedals, as each pedal has no effect on what the other pedals can do. To change a tuning simply remove a tuning screw from one hole and put it in another and adjust. Compensating and stops can also be accomplished with this system. One important feature it doesn't have is balanced pulls as the string moving the farthest will start moving first and in most cases this will act as a natural 1/2 stop.

Extrusions were used for both the frame and pedal board. "T" slots were extruded in both pedal board and frame to accept a 10-32 square nut. This allowed both pedals and knee levers to be moved right or left to suit the players personal taste.

Another advantage of this system was the fact that the pedal spots were built into the changer, eliminating the possibility of thermal expansion and contraction in the changer.

Like most prototypes, mistakes were made. If the tuning and linkage system was not adjusted properly, some parts could fall out of place. This was corrected with a simple bracket. Another mistake was in the adjustable lowering springs. These adjustments offered a small advantage to people with a little mechanical knowledge. Most problems were caused by adjusting first, then reading the manual.

This instrument was the first Fender pedal guitar with knee levers. When the orders came in with many different pedal set ups and pedal-knee lever combinations, Fender marketing and manufacturing decided not to become custom builders. At this time all pedal guitars were dropped. (PS 210, 400, 800,1000, 2000) I was very disappointed as I felt my whole future was at stake with this instrument, however, I could not blame them as the pedal guitar does not belong on a production line.

Text from the PS 210 Brochure:

Extensively researched and engineered with the musicians in mind, featuring 10 breakthroughs that you've all been waiting for:

(1) The new tuning mechanism pressure is always applied in one direction. A string can be lowered to pitch without adjusting out-play as required with a geared key.

Instrument can be tuned with the right hand while holding a chord with the left.

Excess string length which vibrates and cancels from the fundamental is eliminated, allowing much great sustain.

The mechanism allows the instrument to be 9 inches shorter.

Strings can be changed faster and easier.

(2) The changer unit operates without the use or pins shafts. Friction and noise are virtually eliminated.

One to ten strings can be activated per pedal. To change or add to a tuning, simply move or adjust screws on the adjustment screw bar as required. Pedal tunings can be changed in less than one minute per string.

Each string can be raised or lowered to as many positions as there are pedals, depending on the elasticity of the string.

The changer unit is located on the left of the player, with a minimum angle and roller bridges, to instill perfect intonation and eliminate string breakage.

(3) Pedals, knee levers, and pickups are shifted from one neck to the other with a simple trouble free lever. In addition, a switch is provided to turn pickups on regardless of lever position.

(4) An all new linkage systems is used, eliminating cables, pins, shafts. and pulleys to minimize friction and noise.

(5) A new pickup is offered with wider frequency response and more power.

(6) Body is aluminum construction. Combined with the new pickup it produces a tone never achieved before.

(7) The neck, made of solid curly maple, also controls the distance from bridge to nut. This controls de-tuning effect caused by temperature change.

(8) Both pedals and knee lever are mounted on a sliding track, easily adjusted from side to side to the spacing desired.

(9) Thumb screws mounted on pedals to adjust out all excess play in linkage.

(10) New quick clamp latches on pedal board for faster set up time.

23 1/2" scale. 12 3/8" wide. 271/2" long. And it weighs 65 pounds, including the case and legs. Volume pedal is optional.

Extra knee levers available. Walnut burl effect. Packed in a single, rugged carrying case, it can be unpacked, assembled and ready to play in a minimum amount of time.

The standard P.S. 210 is equipped with eight pedals and one knee lever. For optional pedal and knee lever combinations consult the Fender Price List.

Standard Accessories: Hard shell plush lined case, cord, polishing cloth, rubber-tipped telescoping tubular steel legs.

Optional accessories Fender volume foot pedal, Fender tone and volume foot pedal. II Walnut burl finish only

For prices and ordering information consult the Fender Price List under Numbers 14-1426 thru 14-1439.

... J-D.
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basilh
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Post by basilh »

It is most interesting to read about the trials with hydraulics.. Whatever became of the test bed guitar ?

In 1963 myself and Lawrence Maciver were experimenting with both hydraulics and solenoids.
Lawrence was an aircraft technician in Bristol.
We manufactured the "Custom" Brand Pedal Steels. (Purely mechanical, but with the option of a photocell pickup that gave an almost perfect sine wave output)

Later (1965) John Birch and myself conducted tests with a solenoid system, but found it too noisy, although we did develop a few nice pickups..

As a point of interest in a completely different direction, I wonder just how many Technically minded Players/Builders have read the Gene Fields interview.
It's littered with ambiguous typographical errors, LIKE:-
"Another advantage of this system was the fact that the pedal spots were built into the changer, eliminating the possibility of thermal expansion and contraction in the changer.
What did they mean to say ?

Maybe, "Another advantage of this system was the fact that the pedal STOPS were built into the changer, eliminating the possibility of thermal expansion and contraction in the linkage mechanism affecting pitch ADJUSTMENTS."

And statements like "Standard Accessories: Hard shell plush lined case, cord, polishing cloth, rubber-tipped telescoping tubular steel legs."
Since when have legs been a accessory ?

I'm glad the legs were ordered with mine, I'd have hated to play it on my lap.. over 50lbs dead weight is not to be endured unless QUITE Warm.

And this Puzzling statement "Instrument can be tuned with the right hand while holding a chord with the left."
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Earnest Bovine
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Post by Earnest Bovine »

Paul Redmond wrote:If one doesn't wrap the strings around the posts, the risk of the string pulling loose all by itself is great...there's really nothing to stop it.
I don't see posts on modern keyless guitars. Isn't it enough to tighten a screw on it?
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Bo Borland
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Post by Bo Borland »

Maybe once they started to use hex or torx cap head screw/bolts they didn't need the wrapping posts
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Post by Paul Redmond »

Earnest - On a keyless guitar it's best to at least wind the string around something!!! By bending the string a bit, its unlikely that it will come loose. Joe Kline's tuning arms had the string bending twice before being clamped by the clamp screw. I used a similar concept on my Whitney's. Others did the same thing. The screw WILL hold the string by itself, but much greater torque must be used to clamp it down.
Since Gene informed me of the electrolysis thing in 1988, I have never "wrapped" my strings around the here-discussed posts. I have never had one come undone on me since 1988. You must wind the strings around the clamp screws in a counter-clockwise fashion as is recommended anyhow.
Basil must be the world's greatest fan and advocate of the PS-210...second only to its inventor...Gene Fields. I've watched Basil's videos and found them most informative.
Yes, Gene is still alive as he's much too "ornery" a Texan to succumb to anything else. One of the most brilliant thinkers of the present age. Yes, he does think outside the envelope which makes his ideas untethered to convention and open to scrutiny. His ideas have more than withstood the tests of time. Things Gene was espousing a 1/2 century ago are being proven factual and relevant time and again today. Y'all can fight him and resist his futuristic ideas, but he's got a ton of experience going for him and that experience has proven him right on the money all the time. I have said it before, but I'll repeat it here. Gene Fields is to pedal steel guitar what Preston Tucker was to the automobile in 1947 and 1948. Nuff said.
PRR
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Eric Stumpf
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Post by Eric Stumpf »

OK, so it's been established through this thread that this the coolest pedal steel on Earth and we all want it. Do you own it? Does the music store you work at own it? Are you eventually going to publicly post a price or are you only accepting offers through e-mail? You gotta stop teasing us....it's cruel. State your terms of sale, please.
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Rick Schmidt
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Post by Rick Schmidt »

Ok I guess I got some "splainin" to do. It was a busy gigging weekend for me, so I couldn't really spend much time here. Sorry to leave y'all hanging.

The music store where I work, will be selling the instrument on consignment as soon as it gets here. It is currently in transit. My boss and the owner of the steel are old buddies, so it is going to happen! So far all I've had to go on myself is the same pics that you've seen.

I've been getting PMs and emails from all over the known steel world. I promise I will let you know as soon as I can see it and check it out. (not to worry, I can't afford it myself :\) Then we'll start the ball rolling looking for a serious buyer. I do think the price will be realistic.

By the way, I'm not a salesman, just the shipping manager. If I get any thing for doing this, it'll go to b0b.
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Rick Schmidt
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It's finally here!!!!!

Post by Rick Schmidt »

Ok, after a bit of a false start on my part, I now have the steel guitar in my hot little hands. I guess I just got prematurely over excited when I first heard about it. :roll:

Like I said before, this axe is on consignment. The name of the business that I work for is Buffalo Brothers Vintage Guitars in Carlsbad Ca. Here's a link: http://www.buffalobrosguitars.com/
(BY the way, we also have a really nice Fender 2000 and a ShoBud Pro-1 (S10 6+3)

This guitar is the BOMB!!! My good friend and steel guitar doc par excellence, Jim Palenscar, came over to give it a proper check up yesterday. I'm pretty sure he was as impressed as he could be with the brilliant and ahead of it's time design of Mr. Fields' creation. I know that I am! We set it up as an Ext. E9, but you would not believe how easy it is to change to any set up that you can think of!!! Just move a screw to the desired location an voila!!! It must be so nice to experiment with tuning ideas without have to take the whole undercarriage apart! BTW, the tone is to die for!!!

Here are some pics in the case, string spacing (wider than I was expecting!), and proof that only one of the guides on the string "sled" in broken. (not really a big deal)

Regarding the case...it looks to me like it must be a PS210 case. Someone put a big piece of balsa wood in to keep the steel in place. The case itself is pretty substantial (i.e. heavy and well made) The guitar on it's own is not that heavy. Total weight is 63 Llbs.

We're asking $5200 + shipping charges. Anyone interested should email me.

Thanks, Rick

p.s., This guitar is not on the floor or on the inventory page at Buffalo Bros. If anybody in the area wants to come see it, I'm here Mon-Thursday 9-4.
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Rick Schmidt
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Post by Rick Schmidt »

BUMP
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Tony Glassman
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Post by Tony Glassman »

Stu Schulman wrote:Hey Rick,Didn't Blackie have something like that in his shop in Garbage Grove years ago?Maybe it was a double neck...That's pretty cool looking. ;-)
You're right. I saw one at his shop back in the mid or late 70's. It was a Double neck, but one of the necks was fretted for guitar (a'la Thumbs Carlisle).
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ebb
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Post by ebb »

sorry to cross post but thats how it started

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=187944
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basilh
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Post by basilh »

It surely is the same guitar, I wonder if that picture was taken as part of an advert for Fender, notice all amps and instruments are Fender ?

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Rick Batey
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Post by Rick Batey »

Likely taken at the Fender plant, Basil. The guitar far right is a very rare prototype or one-off: possibly a Zebra?

(Edit: whoops... apologies for going off-topic on a For Sale thread).
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Stephen Calhoun
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Post by Stephen Calhoun »

Incidentally, it's three of the original Beach Boys on the left, and probably Fataar and Chaplin on the steel and semi-hollow.
slide avant-gardist, experimentalist, echo surfer
two 1970-ish Fender 400, Fouke Industrial Rail, Allen Melbert 6, Rondo SX -- everything one way or the other through Guitar Rig/Logic/Apple/synthesizers/iPAD. ...sometimes out to a Tech 21 Trademark 60 1x12
recording as Kamelmauz.bandcamp.com
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J D Sauser
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Post by J D Sauser »

My research on these instruments (Fender 210, 110 and 112), the changer, the Gibson ElectraHarp and Alvino Rey has lead me to discover two interesting finds.
  • In Loreene Ruymar's book, Alvino Rey recounts HIS memories of how the Gibson ElectraHarp came to be be developed or invented (Harlin Bros. had a different story, of course).
    In that article he also went on to suggest that he (AR) went to work with Leo Fender and Freddy Tavares on their PSG's. He also mentions; "... Gene Fields developed a wonderful steel but they (Fender) dropped the idea, much against MY (AR's) wishes." I don't know if this suggests that Alvino Rey was working at Fender at the same time as Gene Fields did(?)
    Link to Google Books version of this page.
  • I also came across this page about the Gibson ElectraHarp which I find very interesting, as it includes some NEW detailed HD pictures of an EH in amazing condition: http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrings/ ... aharp.html. Some of the detailed pictures are clickable to size up!
As I mentioned earlier on, it's amazing how similar the Fender-Fields changer was to the Gibson changer! This in no way meant to diminish Gene Fields accomplishments, btw.

... J-D.
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Post by richard burton »

JD,
If you click on the 'quote' section on this post, you will see how to reduce the width of your posts, whilst still imparting the information :D

Click Here
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basilh
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Post by basilh »

J D Sauser wrote:My research on these instruments (Fender 210, 110 and 112), the changer, the Gibson ElectraHarp and Alvino Rey has lead me to discover two interesting finds.
  • In Loreene Ruymar's book, Alvino Rey recounts HIS memories of how the Gibson ElectraHarp came to be be developed or invented (Harlin Bros. had a different story, of course).
AND a dated patent application to back up their claims.
So much so that the MK1 Electraharp design infringed the patent and Gibson had to redesign the changer, with disastrous results.
The redesigned changer used a primitive method of flattening the strings, not like the Harlin split "Scisors" finger.
J D Sauser wrote: As I mentioned earlier on, it's amazing how similar the Fender-Fields changer was to the Gibson changer! This in no way meant to diminish Gene Fields accomplishments, btw.
... J-D.
The Fender PS-210 stlyle changer is identical in methodology to the ORIGINAL Harlin Bros., only in a different orientation.

The changer on my Gibson MultiHarp 3 neck and my EH-610 were of the modified Mk2 type..

Mine.
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The Gibson Mk1 changer as you can see has a scissors finger changer, the same system that ALL modern steel guitars now use.. ??

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Rick Schmidt
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Post by Rick Schmidt »

TTT
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