Designing a new PSG: Best TUNING KEYS?

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 3 Jun 2010 7:41 am

I am in the process of drawing the final concept plans to prototype a new PSG.
I WILL discuss the base concept later.

I will be posting questions and ask for help now and then.

Right now, I would like to know which you all think are the best (QUALITY, durability, reliability, stability) TUNING KEYS (available TODAY -no vintage-).

Please, post DETAILED information (brand AND model). If you can, please link to the manufacturer (I will need to approach them for dimensions etc.).

Thanks! ... J-D.

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 3 Jun 2010 8:46 am

J.D.,
I don't know the model number, but I've always had good results from Grover tuning keys.

Ben Feher · Post by **Ben Feher** » 3 Jun 2010 9:08 am

I think that you might have good luck with these if your looking to design something outside the box:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guit ... uners.html

Great stability and a 40:1 ratio. A lot like the tuners on a gearless guitar. Also they are super quick for string changes. Though their design might make mounting on a PSG tricky, but this is a prototype right? time to think outside the box right?

Other than that, Waverlies are real high quality. I know they are regarded as the best mandolin tuners money will buy, but not sure about guitar. Some might not like the open gear design, but I think its really classy.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guit ... uners.html

Ross Shafer · Post by **Ross Shafer** » 3 Jun 2010 9:55 am

Gotoh 510 tuners are definitely the nicest tuners I've used (6 strings only). They make a bunch of different models (locking and standard) in different finishes and sizes. You can buy them at Stew Mac and Luthier's Mercatile and maybe Allparts....Luthier's merc. has a whole bunch of cool button options.

Here's a link to Gotoh's catalog with dimensions. http

://www.sounds-planet.com/catalog/gotoh-e/h ... eries.html

I'm pretty sure not all these are available, so you'll want to figure out which tuners are actually available from the sources above (or wherever else you can find them) before committing to any dimensions.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jun 2010 1:50 pm

Sperzel tuners are top-notch. I have them on several of my 6-stringers. The locking tuners would work well on an S-10/12, but on a double-neck, the E 9th 10th string, and the C6th 1st string would probably be too close together to operate the locking wheel. However,,,, he has a new model that locks the string by friction,. and is very cool-looking, and available in lots of colors. They're his "Sound-Lok tuners. Scroll down to them on this page for a look-see and explanation;
http://www.sperzel.com/Models_Colors.asp

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 3 Jun 2010 2:11 pm

Can't go wrong with Grover, Sperzel, Kluson, or Gotoh. If I was designing it, I'd use Grovers though.

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 3 Jun 2010 5:10 pm

Go keyless.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 8 Jun 2010 1:34 pm

Thanks to all so far.
KEEP'EM coming please!

Yes, it's a "final" prototype design and it IS WAY OUT the box. So, I'd be more than interested to be pointed to new ideas too... but I need quality and stability.

Doug. I am Keyless-friendly. Actually, the first prototype WAS keyless. I don't discard the keyless approach but I have a real unique idea for a key head design now.

Keep'em coming... J-D.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 8 Jun 2010 5:25 pm

JD,
I have pondered several makes but always come back to the tested and true... Grovers.Full size or mid size. You can never go wrong with them. Built to last and timeless in form and beauty.

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 8 Jun 2010 6:13 pm

Stay out of the box. That is the only path to progress.
If you are dealing with any quantity at all keyless is the way to go. Simple to produce, no bridge rollers necessary. The math does not lie, nor do the results of a good keyless tuner. I buy Grover tuners at the lowest possible price, and the savings on the cost of tuners vs. an extruded keyless finger is significant, even before you figure in the cost of rollers. Yes, I probably will switch at some point.
Best of luck to you! I will be interested to see your ideas.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 8 Jun 2010 8:11 pm

If you want the best...

http://www.stewmac.com/waverly?gclid=CK ... gwodi100jg

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 8 Jun 2010 8:49 pm

Grover Rotomatic (full size) 18:1 ratio....AWESOME tuners, but might not look "new" enough for your concept?

Steinberger....40:1 ratio sounds great, but a pain in the ars to tune.

Sperzel....I've never used them on a steel, but they've broken on my acoustic guitars before and left me hanging. Not even if they were free.

Kluson....Not what they used to be. Not even made by Kluson anymore, and again, pretty vintage looking.

Gotoh....Very modern looking and at least as reliable as the Grovers.

Waverly....I agree with Danny, they are absolutely the best on the market. VERY expensive, but worth every penny.

JMO

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 9 Jun 2010 9:46 pm

Gotoh's "organic" design tuners are available with a number of different knobs, look very sleek and come in a 22:1 version, which should be good for fine tuning. Also, they are extremely well built. Pricey but worth the money.

Schallers are top quality, but only available in a 12:1 ratio if I remember correctly.

John Groover McDuffie · Post by **John Groover McDuffie** » 10 Jun 2010 2:59 am

I like the Sperzels on my Carter. I also like Grover mini-rotomatics.

Bernard Curnow · Post by **Bernard Curnow** » 10 Jun 2010 8:08 am

I allways use Sperzels Professional on the Guitars I build as the location pin is a lot quicker to position the hole in the tuining head frame than drill and tap for the location screws for many of the other makes also they are smaller in hight so that the head stock can be thinner. If you go to Stewart-MacDonald. www.stewmac.com in the search box type in machine heads on page 4 and select type then go to the specs tab and you will find a drawing with the sizes and the dionentions
Regards CURNOW Steel Guitars Cornwall UK.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Jun 2010 10:20 am

Scott! What did you do to your Sperzels? I've had them on at least ten guitars since they first hit the market. Lots of my friends have them. No one has had any problems with them at all! Just curious about how the broke.

Scott Shipley · Post by **Scott Shipley** » 10 Jun 2010 8:51 pm

John, in all fairness, the Sperzels I had problems with were the open-geared design. I've not had any bad experiences with the sealed models. One of the mishaps was (I believe) due to an extreme temperature change in the cargo hold of a 777. The other one just flat out broke on me. Both were installed on acoustic guitars I used to endorse, Composite Acoustics. A fellow endorser had the same thing happen to him as well. The guitars are engineered very well, so I don't think the guitar was the problem.
Maybe I was just lucky, lol.
$:\$

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 15 Jun 2010 10:04 am

First, thanks again to all.

QUESTION:
Some on here seem to suggest that 20:1 ratios are more desirable than 40:1.
Is the ration not indicating the numbers of key turns to make the shaft turn once. Would then, a higher ration (Eg: 40:1) give us better FINE tuning abilities?

SPERZEL:
All my Carters obviously had Sperzel tuners. The mechanics seemed OK but on the shaft tended to get burrs from the thinnest string (o.o11) and cut them at the pin hole. I often hat to sand the beveled pin hole before changing stings in order to avoid popping a new one. Apparently the shaft was made of brass (?) and plated. The the string would cut into the brass and flake of the plating which in turn could cut the strings.

Anybody else experienced that?

GOTOH:
Does anybody have their company web site link? I can't seem to google it.

VINTAGE vs. MODERN.
I am not very fond of the "Kluson" style "vintage" look tuners. They look just cheap to me. Always did.

I need a standard tuner of QUALITY. If possible not too large. I don't mind modern looks, but I can't accommodated access to a secondary "fine" tuning or "locking" nut.
I could use "open" style tuners, as long they are of quality and reliable, but I can adapt enclosed style tuners it they are better.

By the way, my system will most likely NOT have rollers at the nut. They won't be needed.

... J-D.

John Groover McDuffie · Post by **John Groover McDuffie** » 15 Jun 2010 10:40 am

J D Sauser wrote: QUESTION:
Some on here seem to suggest that 20:1 ratios are more desirable than 40:1.
Is the ration not indicating the numbers of key turns to make the shaft turn once. Would then, a higher ration (Eg: 40:1) give us better FINE tuning abilities?

Yes, but there is a trade-off between fine tuning precision and laborious amount of work to get a string up to pitch, and I question whether we can benefit from that degree of precision, considering other variables in a psg, such as hysteresis, etc.

John Groover McDuffie · Post by **John Groover McDuffie** » 15 Jun 2010 10:43 am

I suggest you get in touch with Dave Borisoff at Hipshot Products. He is making some great tuners, is a very creative designer and machinist and a pedal steel player. Perhaps he has some tuners that you would like, or could collaborate with you on some. Feel free to tell him I suggested you call. We are old friends.

http://www.hipshotproducts.com/

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 15 Jun 2010 9:53 pm

Here's Gotoh:

http://www.g-gotoh.com/

http://www.hosco.co.jp/HOSCO_ENGLISH/Pages/Gotoh.html

The stealth keys look übercool! (but they can only take 45 lbs of string pull, so maybe not for pedal steel)

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 17 Jun 2010 2:49 am

I've always used Schaller Mini- 6s with super results I believe they were first with this style and Spertzel came along later. They have an 18 to 1 gear ratio and German Engineering. They offer a set with Ebony Knobs which are really classy. They also offer a locking mini m-6 if thats what you like.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 17 Jun 2010 3:10 pm

John Floyd wrote:I've always used Schaller Mini- 6s with super results I believe they were first with this style and Spertzel came along later. They have an 18 to 1 gear ratio and German Engineering. They offer a set with Ebony Knobs which are really classy. They also offer a locking mini m-6 if thats what you like.

Thanks for the gotoh link.
I don't believe I knowingly owned a guitar with "locking" tuning machines.
Can anyone share how they work?

Thanks! ... J-D.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 17 Jun 2010 4:46 pm

Buy machine tuners that you know will be around for decades. There's nothing worse than an excellent tuner that's so nonstandard that you have to replace all of them when one of them develops a fault. For that reason I would recommend Grovers. I can't see them ever disappearing.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 17 Jun 2010 6:28 pm

J.D., there is a knob on the back that tightens the string in the hole. They save a lot of time because you put the string through the hole, tighten up the knob and clip and start winding. A very cool design.

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Designing a new PSG: Best TUNING KEYS?

Designing a new PSG: Best TUNING KEYS?

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