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Topic: Push - Pull Sound |
Paul Norman
From:
Washington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 24 May 2010 2:37 pm |
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| What causes an Emmons Push-Pull to have "That Sound "? |
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Carson Leighton
From:
N.B. Canada
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Posted 24 May 2010 3:51 pm
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| Paul,,there have been numerous discussions on this topic over the years on the forum..You should be able to do a search to find what you are looking for...A lot of people who own and play these guitars as well as people who work on them believe it has something to do with the design of the changer/fingers, body contact of fingers, and the way it is integrated to the mechanism..I'm sure there are other factors as well...Regards,,,Carson |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 24 May 2010 4:08 pm
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There's a lot of things that affect it, and obviously a lot of different opinions. But the changer design has a lot to do with it. The raise fingers (labelled 19 in the diagram) are wide and long, with more material to resonate; the particular alloy of aluminum used (2024) supposedly has a big effect on the sound. Then there's how the fingers stop at the cabinet for raises (as in Fig. 6), making direct contact. This is very resonant.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 May 2010 7:51 pm
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| Ryan Barwin wrote: |
| Then there's how the fingers stop at the cabinet for raises ..., making direct contact. This is very resonant. |
Raised strings sound the same to me. So I don't think that finger-to-body contact affects the tone. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 24 May 2010 10:42 pm
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Raised strings sound the same to me. So I don't think that finger-to-body contact affects the tone. |
P/P strings are in contact with the body at all times:
- RAISES: body contact @ the front of the changer hole
- LOWERS: body contact @ the endplate
- OPEN STRING: body contact because the raise finger is in contact w/ the lower finger which is held against the front of the changer hole in the open position.
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 24 May 2010 10:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 4:01 am
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They sound different, because they are different!
I think part of it is a lack of nylon
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 7:42 am
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Do any other guitars use the 2024 alloy for changer fingers?
The vibrating string is stopped at two points: the bar and the changer. We all hear how using a different bar affects tone. It stands to reason that different changer alloys would have a similar effect.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 8:47 am
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i keep hearing nearly every niche musical instrument group talk of "that sound" - yet no one can ever explain it, just say that it has "that sound" - whether it be old flathead gibson banjos, pre-war martin guitars, 50's maple neck fenders, italian violins, emmpns p/p's etc, etc - i think "that sound" is nothing more than the sound we heard over and over again growing up listening to whoever our major influences were which got ingrained in our psyche - it seems in every case, one design reigns as having "that sound", ie the desired sound of that genre - if you want to be a country guitarist, you play a tele, a bluegrass banjo picker, a flathead mastertone.... there have been numerous listening tests where 99% of the players could not pick out "that sound" from a control group
actually, to ME, "that sound" is the sound of a Sho-Bud fingertip that Lloyd Green played in the late '60's
all that to say that i do prefer the emmons sound - P/P or LL over most of the others.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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David Collins
From:
Madison, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 9:39 am
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b0b,
I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that the alloy used for the changer fingers does make a difference.
I had a couple of raise finger replacements made at a local machine shop once for a Push Pull. I just told the guy to make them from aluminum, and he did. I don't know which alloy he used, but it literally sucked the sustain and the tone right out of the guitar.
I eventually found some Emmons fingers, installed them and the sound returned!
I'm sure that other factors are involved as well.
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David Collins
www.chjoyce.com |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 25 May 2010 9:52 am
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| i'm curious also. if the 2024 aluminum has something to do with it you'd think others would at least try it. does promat use the same material? |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 25 May 2010 11:00 am
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Iv'e got the 'Duanne marrs' aluminium fingers on my Bud which i converted to.
They are way better than the pot metal that they used.
Duanne told me at that time, that it was 'Aircraft aluminium' However i haven't a clue as to what grade that is in metal/material terms??
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 12:30 pm
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Ryan
The changer in the patent description you posted is the Emmons changer that they no longer used after early December 1964. The first fingers were fatter and shorter, had fewer leverage hole choices, used half inch or even smaller diameter axles, and notice too that the pull rods connected with springs, not hooks. Springs rather than hooks are what appear in the 1964 Emmons brochure.
Also, in my early changers the fingers are made of 6061 T6, not 2026, by the way. At the end of 1964, after about a dozen and a half guitars were completed, the changer with the "normal" push pull fingers appeared.
Chris Lucker
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 2:00 pm
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| Chris Lucker wrote: |
| ...in my early changers the fingers are made of 6061 T6, not 2026, |
Isn't 6061 the same material that most builders use today for changer fingers? |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 2:56 pm
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I'm still much of a novice on steel guitar mechanics but I have learned that quality of metal is very important from reading the great posts here.
While I was reading this post I thought of a novice type question that some of the more experienced members can answer.
Are the aluminum blanks that changer fingers are stamped from extruded or cast aluminum? Can that make a difference in tone?
I'm liking this post. Best wishes.
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 3:36 pm
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Bigsbys, for example, are cast fingers. Emmons are stamped from extruded. I understand that besides design ideas and fifty 24 fret fretboards, Buddy Emmons brought the finger dies his father had made at Bendix.
The first fretboards probably ran out around May 1965 because that was when the 23rd D-10 was made, and singles were not made yet.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Carson Leighton
From:
N.B. Canada
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Posted 25 May 2010 3:39 pm string vibrations
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| I don't know much about alloys,,but the material that the fingers are made from on my P/p are full of vibrations..With an A-440 fork, which just happens to be 4 cents sharp,(441) I checked the bottom of the finger on my third string..With the string sounding at a perfect 440 cps. there was a 1 beat per second difference between the fork and finger,clear as a bell...With a cord plugged into the jack, I did the same test,by the touching the fork on the metal end of the cord and got the same result..I thought I would try some harmonics while I was at it,,so I sounded the 9th string -D- and got another A-440 (octave and 5th above)..Faintly, but audible, I could hear the -D- octave above and -G- (4th and octave above)..I am not quite sure what all this means in terms of the tone of the guitar..I tried this test with the guitar both plugged in and unplugged....I just thought I would share this....Carson |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 25 May 2010 4:35 pm
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_alloy
This Wikipedia link kind of explains the numbering system of aluminum alloys, about halfway down the page.
The 4 digit number tells what other elements (atoms) are in a given aluminum alloy. and the T-number describes the tempering process of the alloy.
Pretty "heady" stuff, but interesting. |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 4:54 pm
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Hey Carson. I did discover that recently when I changed the tuners on my p/p, I took the keyhead off the guitar to clean and polish it after removing the old tuners and nut rollers.
I noticed if I tapped it with a wooden pencil while suspended on a length of shoe string, it had a distinct bell like pitch that turned out to be C#.
Once again, it is just an observation that I am sharing too.
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 May 2010 4:57 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
Off topic posts have been extracted to
I'll repeat my question:
Do any other guitars use the 2024 alloy for changer fingers? |
There's several others...with very different tones. Franklin is one of them, but I don't remember which other guitars.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 25 May 2010 4:58 pm
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| Franklin uses 2024. Paul stated this in a post a while back. Also, the MSA Studio Pro uses 2024 I believe. |
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Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 May 2010 5:20 pm Promat Changer
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The Pro Matt Changers are Stainless Steel, You Wont Wear Grooves In Them, Randy G.  |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 May 2010 5:42 pm Re: Promat Changer
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| Randy Gilliam wrote: |
| The Pro Matt Changers are Stainless Steel, You Wont Wear Grooves In Them, Randy G. |
How does the sound compare to an Emmons PP?
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 May 2010 7:37 am Copied from a topic in Forum Feedback
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I think the big reason p/p's have "that" sound is because the pedal and lever stops are all made directly at the changer. The changer fingers are not just dangling out in space when the change is made as is the case with an all pull.
When a person sets up the changes for a p/p, you don't even have to have the rods attached. It can all be done beforehand.
Another contributing factor might be the connection of the changer to the guitar itself. There are two mounting screws from the changer that go through the body and into the end piece on the guitar. Very solid connection. |
(I've deleted some non-informative, off-topic replies.) |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 26 May 2010 8:24 am
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My post has been deleted since, in the opinion of the moderator, it was "non-informative" and/or "off topic". It was, in fact, quite specifically germane to the ORIGINAL post and deserved to be read by the author.
Apparently the truth is to be abandoned in favor of heresay, guesswork and conjecture - the content of this entire thread. Talk about being "off topic"! Now folks are debating the merits of various grades of aluminum and stainless steel!
No doubt this will be deleted also.
Am I being more imaginative in my old age or has the level of censorship been kicked up a notch? |
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