Does our focus on the past limit the appeal of Lap Steel

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Mar 2010 6:05 pm

And how many of these "Modern" players are out 3-4 nights a week EVERY week of the year playing to the general public and promoting the instrument ?

Is the general public ready for them in large doses ?
Or do the general public who PAY to be entertained want something they can relate to and recognise in an established genre' and style rather than experimental meanderings.

So who are the final arbiters here, is it the inner circle of the steel guitar world, or is it the vox populi ?

OK So the audience I play to isn't following a pop group that has a player that occasionally plays a solo and has everyone wondering what the instrument is because it isn't recognisable, being disguised by effects and the signature sound hidden.

The funny thing is, the audience I play to, mostly know what the instrument is because of it's promotion to them over the past decades, the "Blue Rinse Brigade" ARE the main audience to live music over here. Acts Like Daniel O'Donnell dominate the theatre circuit as well as the country/easy listening charts.

I also think that to insinuate that the early iconic players like Sol Hoopii, Eddie Bush, Barney Isaacs, Jules Ah See, Joaquin Murphy, Buddy Emmons, et al are at the same level of expertise as "Chuck Berry, is pushing the point a little, there is NO comparison. Django, Eddie Lang, and Barney Kessel may be better yardsticks.

My spin on it is that old maxim "Try to educate the public and THEY'LL quickly educate you".

I severely doubt that the players mentioned elsewhere in this thread could get close to the level of expertise and accomplishment as the ones I referred to as iconic.

The what would appear to be classified here as the "Run of the Mill" steel players DO take the instrument to the people and not let it get buried in some local folk club with an audience of "Anoraks" purporting to understand the NEW approach.

Let's face it the attitude of "Let's bring the instrument up to date" has been going on for decades also. The problem is that 'how many of today's players will be considered as icons in 30-40 years time' ?

My opinion is that if you play just for Steel Players you'll have an audience of a select few who specialise in the narrow genre' that's your speciality.. That's not going to get the instrument heard by more, it only will serve to marginalise it.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 19 Mar 2010 6:48 pm

basilh wrote: ... not let it get buried in some local folk club with an audience of "Anoraks" purporting to understand the NEW approach.

I guess Ben Harper having had 7 albums in the Billboard Top 100 list and touring all over the world classifies as playing for "anoraks at a folk club"? Like his style or not, but there's no denying his influence on the younger generation.

I don't see any reasons to get all confrontational here, it's not a matter of either/or or black/white. Traditional and "modern" should be able to co-exist perfectly, as they do with most other instruments.

Nobody here have dissed the iconic players, why diss the new ones? That's no way to welcome and encourage new talents.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Mar 2010 8:19 pm

Steinar Gregertsen wrote: I guess Ben Harper having had 7 albums in the Billboard Top 100 list and touring all over the world classifies as playing for "anoraks at a folk club"? Like his style or not, but there's no denying his influence on the younger generation.

Cheap shot Steinar, NOT as a steel player ? He's a singer/songwriter..

Nobody here have dissed the iconic players, why diss the new ones? That's no way to welcome and encourage new talents.

Sorry Steinar but the post that used the Chuck Berry comparison was dissing the earlier players by inferring they were of the same level..

Is this thread about welcoming new talent or about trying to start a "New" trend/style ?

I see nothing in the OP about that what I DO see is the half question:-

But I wonder that if the fascination we have with the past, and the tunings of the past, and the tunes of the past are preventing some/many of us from pushing the boundaries of the instrument and exposing it to a younger group.

And as for exposing the steel guitar to the general public and encouraging new talent, how many of these "Modern" players are out 3-4 nights a week EVERY week of the year playing to the general public and promoting the instrument ? Mostly they're using it as a "Gimmic" for effect.

In my limited experience the only tunes requested when and where I play are NONE of the SONGS by the likes of Ben Harper et al, they are the old chestnuts like "Sleep Walk", "Hawaii Tattoo" "Steel Guitar Rag" "San Antonio Rose" and others in that vein.
Of course I only work in a limited way compared to the stars, but still the yardstick is valid for whom I play to, albeit 3-5 nights a week to 250-1000 people 52 weeks a year.

I suppose if you add up the audience I play to, 1 years attendances would probably equate to just one or two concerts of Ben Harper, BUT he ISN'T promoting steel guitar, just because he plays it occasionally you're influence unduly and disproportionately to what the main content of his show is. VOCALS..and that's what the public see him as..

I'm sure that regular guitarists see him in the role of a guitarist, it's natural to associate others who play this instrument with being actual solo steel players, like for instance the recent references to George Harrison.
I'm afraid that the big picture isn't what's being looked at with sufficient depth.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 19 Mar 2010 8:46 pm

basilh ... I think we all get that you are an accomplished player, but coming off with a attitude and discounting any and all that don't fit your description of a "real" steel master is quite rude.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Mar 2010 8:56 pm

You've highlighted one comment, what about the validity of the rest of my observations ?

I don't see any reasons to get all confrontational here, it's not a matter of either/or or black/white. Traditional and "modern" should be able to co-exist perfectly, as they do with most other instruments.

I agree entirely, and without any ire, so lets talk about Lap Steel Players, not singers or multi instrumentalists that have steel guitar in their arsenal of "Effect Instruments"

I severely doubt that the players mentioned elsewhere in this thread could get close to the level of expertise and accomplishment as the ones I referred to as iconic.

Is that opinion incorrect or could it be considered subjective ?

I'm all for promoting the instrument, and do so extensively. Maybe the three and a half million or so people that have bought my SOLO steel Guitar albums should have bought the SOLO steel guitar albums of David Lindley or Ben Harper, or Robert Randolph, oh I nearly missed it, they haven't got any have they.

Now I DIDN'T bring these names into the discussion, but Steinar, YOU did mention the 7 Billboard top hundred entries of Ben Harper, so I feel justified in replying to that.

We SHOULD go back to the OP (Original Poster's) comments, and leave this comparison of sales/popularity to the section devoted to "Music" and get back to talking about Lap steel players, and their entrenchment in the styles and players of old, and it's not being beneficial to promoting the instrument.
To that I plead "Guilty" and am motivated purely by non commercial reasons.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 19 Mar 2010 9:04 pm

Tom Pettingill wrote:basilh ... I think we all get that you are an accomplished player, but coming off with a attitude and discounting any and all that don't fit your description of a "real" steel master is quite rude.

To with all due respect, where did I use the words you quote "Real" Steel Master, that's not what I wrote. That terminology is not to be found except in YOUR post.
What's rude is misquoting or deliberately misdirecting intent.

Also I don't even need to be able to play steel guitar to comment on what I hear.. DO I ? so where do YOU come from with the patronizing remark?

What's the point of a discussion "Forum" if we can't all have our own opinions and state them with civility. That's not rude, what's rude is the comment about being rude.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 3:09 am

Not sure why the diss of Chuck Berry. I use Chuck Berry as the example because, unlike Django and Charlie Christian (who I also love), Chuck Berry's very Iconic style is the basis for much modern rock and roll. Every heard Johnny Winter's version of Johnny B Goode? Christ, the Beatles based their early music on Chuck Berry. If you want to speak impact of a musical style on modern music, it is hard to find anyone more iconic the Chuck Berry.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Mar 2010 3:22 am

Bill, you were the first to diss his guitar playing TECHNIQUE.
The inference in your original post was that Chuck wasn't being discussed in the circles of guitar aficionados, so why were the early lap steel players. Implying that THEY were also not worthy of higher level critique. But they are STILL.. just look here on the SGF for examples.

As an example, every guitarist owes something to Chuck Berry, but I would say that conversations around Chuck Berry's guitar technique do not crowd out conversations about more modern players. Why so with lap steel?

I don't disagree with your NOW statement about his Iconic stature, but THAT wasn't the original point.
Comparing Chuck Berry's very rudimentary TECHNIQUE to that of Steel Guitar players and musicians far more advanced wasn't really a good comparison IMHO.

The lap steel players of the 30's - 40's and even 50's era, were very advanced technically and musically.
In the sense of musicianship, I dare say, more so than 99% of present day players, but obviously technical and musical prowess count for naught any-more.

All of those striving to be different are actually being the same (As each other) so It may be a NEW movement but hardly as influential as the roots.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Mar 2010 3:47 am

And before anyone else says it, YES I Am arrogant, self opinionated, bombastic, somewhat egotistical and can be described accurately by MANY similar expletives, but the "Rose Coloured Glasses" have been discarded years ago on favour of the more utilitarian "Specsavers economy Clearvision" model.

My analysis of the posts relevant points isn't based on any erstwhile ability as a player, it's based on my assimilation of facts ability as a less than well educated human being blessed with recall and pretty good hearing.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 20 Mar 2010 4:06 am

basilh wrote:
Cheap shot Steinar, NOT as a steel player ? He's a singer/songwriter..

Huh? He's a singer/songwriter who plays the lap steel, what's wrong with that? Or do you mean that players are automatically disqualified if they write songs? So if people get interested in the lap steel because of him it doesn't count because it's for the wrong reasons?

I'm out of this discussion,- your posts are so rude, arrogant and small minded that this isn't going anywhere. Having a conversation with you about the matters Bill mentioned doesn't seem possible, it's "your way or the highway". What are you so afraid of? You obviously want to place the steel guitar in a museum that's only available for retirees in Hawaiian shirts. Fine, you do that, and others will do what they want regardless of what you think of it. Over and out.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 4:23 am

Sorry Baz,

I never dissed Chuck Berry and I would hardly call his technique rudimentary. Chuck's licks and technique have been studied by every rock guitarist.

I have no problem with your approach to music. But I'm much more interested in Lindley, Rudd, Steiner, Harper, Tyack, Christiaan Oyens, Campbell Brothers and other people who are trying to move the instrument forward.

And this thread has opened up new names for me to check out. And isn't that the idea?

I just feel that discussions of new players,new techniques, newer music incorporating steel should maybe, just perhaps, be a little higher in the mix than we often see. If people aren't getting inspired to try new things and to push the envelope a bit, then what is the point?

Perhaps you think that lap steel reached its pinnacle with Sol Hoopi. I personally believe it is a much more versatile instrument than that and that we haven't begun to explore the possibilities.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 4:24 am

Steiner,

Please don't let one posters ideas drive you away from this thread. Your contributions to this thread have been great.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 20 Mar 2010 4:36 am

Thanks Bill, but I don't want to be provoked into saying something I'll regret later, so I prefer to step back.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Mar 2010 4:52 am

Very well Steinar, I was attempting to show you the other side of the coin, not the Aloha Shirted retirees one.

I'm obviously in that bracket in your perception, whereas in fact:-

1/ I play COUNTRY pedal steel for a living and Bob Brolly and myself (we ARE a DUO)have raised in excess of 2 million pounds for charities doing such over the past ten years, so much so that Bob was made a Queen's Knight for his work in this field and broadcasting.
Contributing scanners and MRI machines to hospitals around this country is our main objective in entertaining and as such we can't AFFORD to loose sight of the public's taste.

2/ We fill to capacity the Birmingham Symphony hall for a concert EVERY year, that's Bob Brolly, myself and friends.

3/ Over 200 members of our fan club (Yes we have fans) book a week's excursion to Tenerife every year to share in our charity fund raising "Golf Classic" and musical entertainment every night.

4/ Coachloads of the "Blue Rinse Brigade" book weekends away at various venues around the UK and Ireland just to spend the weekend listening to our music which is very predominantly steel guitar.

I Am/we are, in touch with the ground roots music fans playing for them 2-3 times a week, albeit in a different genre' to what you're used to, that's where I get my "Narrow mindedness" from a very broad cross section of fans preferences, if I didn't I'd be out of work. (Which I'm most definitely not, much to the vexation & envy of some)

Anyway, what's the problem, I'm only the voice of one person, the same as yourself, I'd expect you to dismiss my views, it is ONE way of "Having a go" at me, unlike others, I feel or fear no threat to my position in the general plan of things.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Mar 2010 4:54 am

Bill McCloskey wrote:Steiner,

Please don't let one posters ideas drive you away from this thread. Your contributions to this thread have been great.

Well said Bill. That's EXACTLY my point, I'm just ONE voice..albeit with a track record.
Bill I never said your point wasn't valid, I'm just attempted out point out the other aspects of promoting the steel guitar in general.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 4:56 am

Steinar, That is a shame. I have a lot of interest in what you have to say on this topic, especially since you are one of the leading lights in moving the instrument forward, in my opinion.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 20 Mar 2010 5:05 am

I agree with that also Bill, why can't you, Steinar and others in a similar ilk accept there's more than one way forward to promoting this instrument. The various views should only serve to open up this to MORE analysis, on a broader plain.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 5:10 am

"I agree with that also Bill, why can't you, Steinar and others in a similar ilk accept there's more than one way forward to promoting this instrument."

Baz, I would say that many people, including me, feel that you are guilty of that very thing: having difficulty accepting there is more than one way to move the instrument forward.

Mike Bagwell · Post by **Mike Bagwell** » 20 Mar 2010 5:23 am

Bill,

When you say "moving forward" are you referring musical ideas or the instruments image.
I love are respect all the players you mentioned, I just never consider that these guys were moving the instrument forward musically because they aren't as harmonically or technically complex as someone like Murphey. Some of the modern players styles are rooted in the 30's.
As for as the image of the steel guitar is concerned Harper and Randolph have done wonders for the instrument.I regularly get the benefit of the work they have done.

Mike

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 5:36 am

Mike,

I don't think I would "necessarily" agree that harmonic complexity is synonymous with moving things forward. Certainly Miles Davis was far less technically and harmonically advanced that Dizzy Gillespie, but certainly moved the jazz forward, more than once I might add.

I think moving things forward would include new compositions that take into account the unique nature of steel guitar, expanding the sonic capabilities, the incorporation of steel into different forms and genres of music (think of Slo-mo or Nation Beat), new techniques...

Basically I'd like to see more attention paid to lap steel played outside the genres it is normally associated with.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 20 Mar 2010 5:53 am

basilh wrote: why can't you, Steinar and others in a similar ilk accept there's more than one way forward to promoting this instrument.

Basil, you obviously haven't read my posts, please go back to square one and carefully re-read my posts on the first page.

In regard to "bringing the instrument forward" - I'm not on a mission to bring anything forward, all I want to do is to play music that pleases me and if it pleases somebody else I'm a happy man. Simple as that. I've never aspired to be a "virtuoso" and never will be, for me it's all about the music.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2010 5:58 am

I agree, the term "moving things forward" is an unfortunate one.

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 20 Mar 2010 5:59 am

Do we wnat to take a picture of a painting or paint our own view?

The Taj Mahal has been built and can inspire but it has been built.

Fred Kinbom · Post by **Fred Kinbom** » 20 Mar 2010 6:01 am

Ouch what a negative turn this thread has taken.

I just wanted to say thanks to Roman and Steinar for the very nice words earlier in this thread.

As I am writing now, I guess I will try to add some words to the thread subject too.

We are all here for a love of the lap steel guitar, that's a fact.

Then I think - as with everything where individuals and hence subjectivity is involved - that what our views of music and the steel guitar's role in the music we play and listen to, differs vastly. And that is of course fine and how it should be - imagine if we were all the same.

In my case, the lap steel is an instrument I got completely hooked on a few years ago and very inspired by. I am a songwriter who sings (I dislike the term singer/songwriter

) and have found the lap steel a wonderful instrument to explore and play and write my own music on. I love it dearly. And I have enormous respect for great players of the instrument - past and present, in many styles.

There are a lot of different qualities music and musicians can have - technical skill, taste, being good composers of music, being good arrangers, being good at transcribing others' music and so on. A good musician may possess one or many of these different facets, and one isn't better than the other - what we like in others or aspire to ourselves, it is just down to what we as individuals value most and what our personal strengths are.

Then I think there is also here a distinction related to such personal preferences - the steel guitar as a featured instrument and focal point, or steel guitar being used as a vessel for music where the music is the focal point rather than the instrument(s) it is played on. None is better that the other - it is just two different perspectives.

I am interested in hearing all sorts of music - old and new in many genres - that features lap steel because I am fascinated by the instrument and what different people make it sound like. I am also interested in music where it doesn't matter if it's played on a lap steel or not. As long as it is all good and captivating music (which is again subjective).

Not sure if I manage to add something to this thread - these are just my rambling thoughts after reading the previous posts.

And Basil and Steinar - you are both great musicians and kind people.

Basil - I think you come across rather hard in this thread, but I remember your encouraging words to me here on the SGF when I first started playing lap steel, and my playing was and is not in the style of the old masters (I actually found the thread in question in the old "No Peddlers" section - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/009541.html). These encouraging words from you - a great steel player - and also from Steinar - a great steel player - were so important to me. I had played steel guitar less than a year then, and nervously posted some of my first attempts here, and getting such positive feedback from players I admire was crucial in encouraging this young (a few years older now

) novice in pushing on and pursuing the lap steel guitar. Just trying to say that you are both friendly chaps!

Ramble over. I wish you all a good weekend, full of playing whatever music that feels good to you on this wonderful instrument that we all love.

Cheers,

Fred

Mike Bagwell · Post by **Mike Bagwell** » 20 Mar 2010 6:09 am

Bill,

Thanks for your response. Remember, Miles could Bop when he needed too, he was truly a complete musician.
I think you're coming from a fan type perspective on this particular subject. It gonna be hard to to convince musicians that a player is doing something new and exciting, when they know its the same ideas repackaged with a different look,sound or beat.

Mike