U12 vs. D10 questions

Tom OHara · Post by **Tom OHara** » 12 Mar 2010 1:40 am

Hello all,
I too am new to PSG, but have been playing keyboards and guitar semi-professionally for years. I am considering buying what appears to be a rarely used, late model U12, as I would like to have access to both the 9th and 6th tunings. While I like traditional country, I love Texas swing and the jazz influence I hear in some of Paul Franklin's and Tony White's playing
As an older guy of 58, I appreciate some of the classic Shobud D10's I've seen on the Forum, though I'm thinking: later model, less maintenance, fewer boards, less weight, fewer strings, etc.
I think the U12 concept is good, though I'm aware that it's not established like the D10 separate tunings. I've been advised that although there is not much instruction dedicated to the U12, the individual E9 & C6 material is mostly applicable. There aren't any PSG teachers in my area, so I'm expecting a struggle; but I'm persistent.
Any good advise before making my decision would be greatly appreciated.
I understand that with the U12 E9/B6 tuning you loose the low D available on a straight E9. Is this a problem or are there benfits of this U12 tuning that outweigh(literally)the separate boards of a D10?

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 12 Mar 2010 1:45 am

Hi Tom,Welcome to the forum from Alabama.YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Larry Lorows · Post by **Larry Lorows** » 12 Mar 2010 2:14 am

Hi Tom, I looks like you have already explored all the pros and cons. All I've ever played is U12, except the first six years when I had a U14. I have lots of C6 courses and as you know, it's not hard at all to use E9 or C6 courses. Don't hesitate in purchasing the U12, as you won't regret it. Larry

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 12 Mar 2010 3:07 am

After a long hiatus from playing pedal steel, I started back earlier this year and did it on a Universal 12. No regrets--the guitar is light, compact and I really like the possibilities that the Universal tuning offers. I thought that since I'm basically learning over again, getting used to the U12 would be easier than trying to switch to it later.

As others have said, the E9 and C6 materials work with little (C6) or basically no (E9) modifications. Get the Jeff Newman Universal video--It is basically a tour of the tuning for folks who are considering a Universal or who are new to the Universal. It's very informative and well taught. Jeffran also has a Universal training course that covers the B6 side as well as the tuning's idiosyncrasies. Again, a very well done course.

I really like the Universal.

Dave

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 12 Mar 2010 3:08 am

Hi Tom,
You will lose that low D of the E9th unless you can come up with a new tuning. I personally don't how you can do without it but I hear of guys that don't use it. ??????????

Chuck Snider · Post by **Chuck Snider** » 12 Mar 2010 6:26 am

Although I have a U-12 (E9/B6), and am very much a proponent of them, you made a comment that is worth noting. You mentioned that you like the swing tunes which are often done on the B6(C6) side of things.

With that comment in mind, if you do in the end focus more on the C6 tuning on a U12, many of the guitars are built so that one has to hold a knee lever actuated while playing B6(C6) tunes. Not a big deal if you're only playing an occasional B6(C6) tune, but if that is the majority of what you're playing that might be worth considering.

There are some guitars which have a latching mechanism to hold the B6(C6) as long as you want, or in some cases they have what looks like a small gear shift lever to do that. However, most U12's do not have that and you might keep that in mind as you might want one with the latching mechanism.

Aside from that, I love my GFI U12. Almost any U12 will be lighter than a double neck guitar. I'm not sorry I went for the U12, I feel in some ways it is a bit more flexible than two separate necks. Although there are likely small (some might argue big) tradeoffs with either a U12 or a double neck.

It might be useful if you could visit with one or more players that have a U12 and also some players that are using a double neck, and if possible sit down at them and see first hand how they differ. Even though you may not know how to play one yet, just seeing the logistics of one as opposed to the other might be useful to know.

Good luck,
-Chuck

Danny Naccarato · Post by **Danny Naccarato** » 12 Mar 2010 6:29 am

You don't lose the 9th string "D". I have it on LKR, lowering the 8th string "E" to "D". Been playing U-12 for 20 years and way back then, attended live C6th and E9th seminars by Newman, Wallace, Emmons, etc and never had a problem with the lessons.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 12 Mar 2010 8:32 am

Danny,
All of the KL and pedals are in other usage and to add a pedal to use the other foot with hardly seems worth it. I use that ninth string all of the time so I would really be using the other pull. May I ask when you use the ninth string and in conjunction with what other pulls?

Danny Naccarato · Post by **Danny Naccarato** » 12 Mar 2010 8:46 am

That particluar pull is on the same lever as string 1 F#>G# and string 2 D# > D. This also eliminates C6 pedal 6. Send me an email and i'll send u my copedent

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 12 Mar 2010 8:59 am

Danny,
I sent you an email but in my case that would be involving a KV and using in conjunction with other pulls. I tried to exist without that D on a uni and I couldn't make it............maybe yours system is workable for me.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 12 Mar 2010 9:55 am

Roual Ranes wrote:Hi Tom,
You will lose that low D of the E9th unless you can come up with a new tuning. I personally don't how you can do without it but I hear of guys that don't use it. ??????????

I responded to Tom's identical post here

Roual Ranes wrote:...May I ask when you use the ninth string and in conjunction with what other pulls?

I lower 8th string E to D, and 2nd string D# to D on LKR. This makes for a huge dominant on 10 out of 12. Strings 1 and 7 add the 9th tone F# to the whole thing.
There are many uses of that 9th string D on E9 (same applies to U12 with either 8 lowered or 9 raised). Let's use a few examples using open strings with grip 9,6,5,4 on E9 (substitute 8 for 9 on U12 if applicable):

with no pedals = E/D or E7
with pedal A = E13/D
with pedals A+B = Dmaj7sus2
with pedal B = Esus4/D
with pedals B+C = Dmaj7
with pedal C = Dmaj7b5

This is just using A,B,C with Emmons setup and one common grip. Adding the other available knee levers makes for a host of other useful chords. Even on U12 with a KL giving you the dominant 7th D note (LKR on my Fessy), there's usually at least two more KL's available and all the extra B6 pedals as well.
The only thing I might miss from E9 is single note playing using the 10,9,8 strings on E9, but theres a few ways to do anything on a steel guitar, so its just a matter of finding a new way to achieve the same thing.
Clete

Danny Naccarato · Post by **Danny Naccarato** » 12 Mar 2010 10:10 am

I've had a few requests, so it will be easier to post my copedent here:

[tab]
# Gauge Note LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 RKL RKR
1 12 F# ++G# +G +G
2 15 D# -D --C#
3 12 G# +A
4 15 E +F ++F# -Eb
5 17 B -Bb ++C# ++C# ++C#
6 20p G# +A ++A#
7 26w F# -F --E
8 30 E +F --D -Eb
9 36 B ++C# +C
10 46 G# +A
11 58 E -D# +F
12 76 B ---G# ++C#
[/tab]

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 12 Mar 2010 11:50 am

I've been playing universal since 82. You get the low D back with pedal or lever. I have it on my RKR lever acting on the B string - a step and a half raise which you would think is tough but the low B (I should say middle B as string 12 is B also) doesn't have that much tension on it to start with.
One could argue the D on an E9/10 string can get in the way with the dominant 7th being inappropriate at times. If I went to a double 10 I'd tune the D down to B, lever it up to D, and gain another low string interval (E I think). In fact I don't know how you 10 string E9 guys do without the root on the bottom. I use it all the time.

Sherman Willden · Post by **Sherman Willden** » 12 Mar 2010 2:29 pm

If you decide on the s12 contemplate procuring Joe Wright's e9/b6 course. It is well worth it. Also Joe can set you up with a spreadsheet specifically targeted toward your copedant. Check out his free e9/b6 material on his site. Perform a search here for Joe's website.

Sherman

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 14 Mar 2010 3:46 am

Danny, I like your copedant except for those 1st string changes on your LKR and RKL. Why do you have those on those levers? I know the reasoning for the changes as I have the raise to G on the first string but it seems they'd be in the way for scale work such as playing strings 5 2 4 1 3 1 4 2 5 in that order.

I use that sequence a lot with the A & B pedals down and the 2nd string at D, also with the E's lowered and the 2nd string at C# and also with no pedals and the 2nd string lowered to D or C# or open, so those other two notes would get in the way for me. How do you use those?........JH in Va.

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 14 Mar 2010 8:13 am

If you look through the copedents on this site, you will find several Universal tunings based on B6 or Bb6. If you want to emphasize swing, jazz, blues and rock, that would work well, and the Nashville stuff is still readily available.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 14 Mar 2010 1:10 pm

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

This link is a "must read" for those considering a U12

I play the Bb6/Eb9 copedent shown in the LINKS.

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 15 Mar 2010 2:43 am

Some can get over the 9th string being gone from the open tuning . Some just never get used to it. I got my first universal many years ago . Often I like pulling into the D note . I also like to lower to the D on string 8 . It is still there as is the D to C# . It is just a different movement of the body ( pedals / knee lever ) and takes a little relearning.

Reminds me of the F# , G# changes on 6 & 7 . Some have a lower on 6 and some raise 7 . Both are good and get the same notes . Sometimes one gets in the way of the other , but overall it is more of , what you are used to and knowing where it is at.

After my first universal I no longer have a D on 9 even if I get a 10 string. I move the B to 9 and add a G# on 10 . It will drop to E and raise to A . Gives a lot more bottom end to the 10 string.

With back problems it is universals for me from now on .

Steve Nelson · Post by **Steve Nelson** » 16 Mar 2010 2:13 am

Hey, everybody....I'm very intrigued by the use of lowering the 8th to D...my first 12 was an MSA which was not a universal, that was a few years before it became the thing to do. This guitar I had was an extended E9 tuning with the added lower strings. What I did when I changed it over was along with lowering my 2nd string from Eb to D, I raised my B to D (9th string). My EMCI that I got from a friend a few years ago has the same set up on it so it was no trick at all except it was LKL instead of LKR. Another disadvantage I had at the time (1977) was only double raise and lower....so you had to make compromises. Not to mention my old MSA was a 5 pedal 4 knee lever guitar.....it was 5 & 5 but I loaned it to Joe Wright and it came back missing the dang vertical! LOL!

Scott Howard · Post by **Scott Howard** » 16 Mar 2010 3:20 am

lowering the 8 to end up at a D is where the normal pedal 6 of the B 6th side ends upon a universal . Of course this pedal is normaly tuned while holding in the Eb knee lever . But when used by itself ( and not holding the Eb lower in ) the 4 th string may be out of tune a bit at a F note but the 8th to a D works fine . Great little addition and I have been known to add a knee lever on many E 9th guitars that raised the 4th to F# and lowered the 8th to D .

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 16 Mar 2010 6:03 am

Could someone explain the relative advantages or disadvantages of lowering 8 E-D or raising 9 B-E? I raise 9 on the RKL along with lowering 2. Where would you put a 8 E-D lower?

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 16 Mar 2010 6:15 am

Larry Bell has certainly covered the Universal concept on his Web site:

http://www.larrybell.org/

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 16 Mar 2010 9:06 am

I can only speak for the advantage of having the low D be a raise of the B string on a right hand lever:
Ya know the rock vamp that combines the root note with the 5th, then root with the 6th, then the root with the dominant 7th, and back down again adnoseum over a 1/4/5, 12 bar blues progression?
It is easily done using the pedal A to get the 6, then a right hand lever to get the 7th (same string).
That song "Memphis" has that vamp albeit an entire triad is played for each hit. That's also easily done by encorporating pedal B with A.
I would think this would be more difficult to accomplish if you have to move your left foot to lower to the D, perhaps impossible to mimic the "memphis" vamp verbatem.
This may seem trite but how many times do you find yourself needing to play a rthym lick during a rock tune?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 Mar 2010 12:10 pm

Jim, that's just one of the reasons why I've lowered E to D by itself on a lever for almost 30 years. I tune 2 to D but if I tuned it to D# I would lower it to D on that same lever. I just let off the E to D# lever (RKL for me) while engaging E to D (LKR for me) and it is identical to C6 P6 (which, as a man of your caliber knows IS E9 when you're in B6 open).
ps: it's easier for me to play that Memphis vamp with 11 and 9 (for the root + 5th and 6th tones) and then 8 lowered to D (rather than 9 raised to D) for the b7.

Larry Bell has certainly covered the Universal concept on his Web site:

Thanks for the plug, Mike
your check is in the mail

Let me tell you, there's nobody who enjoys using open D as the root for a variety of nice chords -- mostly of the Ma7 family -- more than I do. I find no disadvantage in having to hit a lever to get it. My personal preference if I can only have one way to get the D is to lower 8 but I use both if I have them both available. I rarely use the 8th string with, e.g., B+C or A+B with a D root so I'll often just lower E to D. But if I do need both the D and E, with B raised to D on 9, it's JUST LIKE PLAYING 9,8,7,6 . . . on a 10 string. With the ability to play both D's you can get some interesting resolutions not available on std E9 by starting with both D notes and let off the levers one at a time, with or without A+B. Again, I see no net disadvantages in getting the D with one or more levers.

I have a push-pull S-12 with only E to D and I get by just fine, but both of my other guitars allow either. I find that, with E to D, I will slant the back end of the bar to get the equivalent of D to C# (usually with 6th and 8th strings) when I really need it. With the B to D change you can just let off the lever with the A pedal down and that gives you the C#, as long as the C# on the 5th string doesn't get in the way.

It is PERSONAL PREFERENCE how you do all this stuff. Do what works for you.

If you're interested in how the universal is derived from C6 CLICK HERE (and how, in many ways, the tuning is more like C6 than E9). Do check out my website. A general history and discussion can be found if you CLICK HERE . Feel free to browse around -- the EQUIPMENT tab has the various setups for my guitars and other stuff that may be useful.

If you still have questions, c'mon back.