Weissenborn style guitars

Miles Unite · Post by **Miles Unite** » 3 Mar 2010 12:31 pm

Hi Folks,

I am new to this forum.Actually I've enjoyed visiting here for many years but now I am a member.

I know many of you own and play Weissenborn style guitars and I would like to know if any of you use a C6th tuning. I suspect from all that I have read is that D tuning is used most of the time. If you use C6th tuning what guage of strings do you use and where do you get them.

Also I'm planning to get one of these Weissenborn copies soon and would like some suggestions on what brand you think is good. I was thinking Lazy River or Celtic Cross. What do you think.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Miles

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 3 Mar 2010 1:17 pm

I've had a Lazy River, a Celtic Cross, a Clinesmith, and a GeorgeBoards weissenborn copy. My Clinesmith is the best of the bunch, the Celtic Cross is a baritone so it is hard to compare. There are folks here who have had good things to say about all those brands.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 3 Mar 2010 1:57 pm

I've owned one Celtic Cross and three Lazy Rivers (still have one). My preference for the Lazy River is simply that,- personal preference and taste, that "x-factor" that is hard to pin down and often has more to do with the player than the instrument. My LR has more "twang" and is louder than my CC was, but then the LR has a spruce top while the CC was all mahogany and in my experience mahogany is often quieter and softer than spruce.

I don't think you can go wrong with either of them.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 3 Mar 2010 2:09 pm

I haven't tried C6th tuning on my el-cheapo Weissenborn. I find that C6th tuning doesn't resonate well on acoustic guitars (my opinion only). I currently have it tuned to open G tuning. Most people seem to play open D or open E tuning, though.

Strings are available through the STRINGS link at the top of every page (supporting the Steel Guitar Forum while you're at it). You definitely need a custom set of strings for C6th tuning - a set of standard guitar strings won't work.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 3 Mar 2010 2:26 pm

I sometimes tune to C6th or enharmonic equivalents on Weissenborn but I agree with Brad, there's something about the physics of the Weissenborn design that strangely, seems to constrict the tone in 6th tunings. My personal opinion is they seem to really open up in tunings like open D. Could be something about the way the overtone series stacks. Don't know.

My new favorite tuning variation on open D is (hi to low) DAGDGC.

Tom Gray · Post by **Tom Gray** » 3 Mar 2010 5:37 pm

I'd like to put in a word for David Dart. I have a few old Weissenborns and a Lazy River baritone, all good, but mostly they stay in the cases. The Hawaiian guitars I go to first are the Darts -- one koa and one mahogany. Great instruments.

Rickey Mitchell · Post by **Rickey Mitchell** » 3 Mar 2010 6:45 pm

Tom Gray wrote:I'd like to put in a word for David Dart. I have a few old Weissenborns and a Lazy River baritone, all good, but mostly they stay in the cases. The Hawaiian guitars I go to first are the Darts -- one koa and one mahogany. Great instruments.

Tom, Are your Weissenborns solid necks?

Chris Drew · Post by **Chris Drew** » 4 Mar 2010 1:52 am

Brad Bechtel wrote:I find that C6th tuning doesn't resonate well on acoustic guitars (my opinion only).

It seems that even when you fit those lighter strings to a regular Weiss it just doesn't want to resonate to those higher tunings, openD & low-bassG is where they want to sing...
Also, a lot of the tunes you'd want to play in C6th may have slants down at the nut-end which can be trickier due to the longer scale-length when compared to many electric steels....

(Cue shameless plug:)

The Bristolian Guitars Malago has been designed specifically to address this issue.
For C6th tuning you'd use the same gauges that you'd use on a regular electric steel with 22.5" scale-length, say 15,17,20,24,30,36, as the scale-length is 23".

Here's a clip of our Basil playing an all-mahogany Malago tuned to E6th (E - C# - B - G# - E - C#)
If you want a brighter tone there's a spruce top option too.

Tom Gray · Post by **Tom Gray** » 4 Mar 2010 5:27 am

Rickey Mitchell wrote:
Tom, Are your Weissenborns solid necks?

Rickey, one is a Kona, with a solid neck to the seventh fret. It has a brighter sound, with less low resonance. If I were to put any of them in C6 it would be that one.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 4 Mar 2010 5:32 am

Take a look at Michael Dunn's guitars, he is one of the great builders in the world. His guitars are priced accordingly, but they are definitely keepers.

http://www.michaeldunnguitars.com/

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 4 Mar 2010 6:08 am

Michael Dunn.....

Grant Johnson · Post by **Grant Johnson** » 4 Mar 2010 9:18 am

Great Caesar's Ghost!!! Those Michael Dunn's are beautiful!!!

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 4 Mar 2010 10:38 am

I posted this on Reso-Nation a few months back in answer to the same question ...

Some of the very best high-end makers include Bear Creek (Bill Hardin), Asher (Bill Asher), Yanuziello (Joe Yanuziello), Burgin (Paddy Burgin), David Dart, Manzanita (Manfred Pietzok), Brauchli (Daniel Brauchli), and Michael Dunn. One tier down in price but still excellent guitars include Lazy River among several other builders. There is also a new Breedlove model that was designed with significant input from Ed Gerhard.

I've owned an all-koa Bear Creek since 1997 (the first BC with rosewood binding) and have never wanted any other Weissenborn. I've played two of Paddy Burgin's instruments and was knocked out by his Australian Blackwood model. Bill Asher's are exceptionally good sounding too. You'll get many different opinions on builders, tonewoods, etc. My humble opinion is that every one of these builders builds fine instruments and some for whatever combination of woods, glue, and relative humidity may sound better than others on any given day. Luthiers also have different ideas about tone; Joe Yanuziello envisions a laptop Martin with more sustain and power; Bill Hardin aims for a modern update on the magical tone of the best vintage Weissies. Your best bet is to play a few and then talk to the builders and see who is really listening to your specific wants and desires. Most of these guys are thrilled to be building guitars for a living and would love to talk with potential customers and answer your questions.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 4 Mar 2010 10:53 am

Andy Volk wrote: Your best bet is to play a few

If you can, that's the best scenario....but a very difficult thing to do.....and not just with Weisenborns, but resophonics as well.....sure would be great to have an acoustic steel expo......

Mitch Crane · Post by **Mitch Crane** » 6 Mar 2010 9:10 am

Wow ! That Dunn looks stunning !

I feel very fortunate to have several quality wessies... 2 Ashers (Koa Style 1 FOR SALE ), Mahogany Teardrop (C tuned) and a Breedlove (B tuned)

A few pics:

Top one is mine: FOR SALE IF INTERESTED (I'd love to get Asher's new deep-body someday... bottom)

Note: The Style 1 has L.R. Baggs M1a installed (by Bill Asher) not shown in the pic.

Asher Teardrop:

Breedlove: (for the Ed Gerhard B tuned stuff)

Miles Unite · Post by **Miles Unite** » 6 Mar 2010 11:21 am

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject. I'm still undecided on buying one.

Man, some of you have beautiful guitars!!

Miles

Steve Hamill · Post by **Steve Hamill** » 6 Mar 2010 11:56 am

Miles where are you in Calif. ?
I have a Brauchli your welcome to test drive.

Miles Unite · Post by **Miles Unite** » 6 Mar 2010 3:18 pm

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the invite to test drive you axe. I live in L.A. County. Where are you?

Miles

Mitch Crane · Post by **Mitch Crane** » 6 Mar 2010 3:47 pm

Miles, you're in my area.. email me if you'd like to get together and play any of mine. The Asher Style 1 is for sale but play em all and see what you think ?

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 7 Mar 2010 6:05 am

Mitch, on your guitars I noticed both Sunrise and Baggs magnetics. What are the differences in your opinion ?
Thanks !

Mitch Crane · Post by **Mitch Crane** » 7 Mar 2010 9:04 am

Olli, the Asher deep body w/ Sunrise is not mine. I own the Style 1 (laying on it's side in the pic).

As far as Sunrise vs Baggs vs ? there's tons of threads to sift through. I prefer the Baggs myself. YMMV

Here's a pretty in-depth look at soundhole pickups:

http://fingerpick.com/pickups.htm

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 7 Mar 2010 10:41 am

I had a Superior. It sounded great in C6. Now that I've gone to 8 strings, I'm considering a Bear Creek. But I have found the Weissenborne to be somewhat impractical. In an acoustic situation (I go alot of places where electrics are strictly forbidden) one needs a resonator. It's just a fact of life. And if you're going to amplify, it's better and more effective to just use a solid body electric. I think the reason that Weissenborne style guitars are played so often in open D is the type of music that tends to be played on them and the style in which it's played. It is a particular situation in which they are still very effective and evocative.

T. W. Hatem · Post by **T. W. Hatem** » 7 Mar 2010 5:49 pm

Edward Meisse wrote:......But I have found the Weissenborne to be somewhat impractical. In an acoustic situation (I go alot of places where electrics are strictly forbidden) one needs a resonator. It's just a fact of life......

Sounds like you summarized the history of the fall of the Weissenborn guitar in the late 20's or so !

Miles Unite · Post by **Miles Unite** » 8 Mar 2010 9:51 pm

Mitch,

Your Asher is really nice. And if I was sure I was going to get a Weiss I would take you up on your offer to play yours. But I have made up my mind to get another reso that I'll tune to C6 or G6.

Just by reading all the info on the Weissenborn's I have come to the conclusion that the tuning I want to use is just to stressful on the instrument. With the reso I can use just about any tuning I want and don't have to worry about the axe.

I really appreciate the input from all of you.

Thanks,
Miles

Chris Drew · Post by **Chris Drew** » 9 Mar 2010 5:57 am

Miles Unite wrote:the tuning I want to use is just to stressful on the instrument. With the reso I can use just about any tuning I want and don't have to worry about the axe.

If you use the correct gauges for your chosen tuning there's no reason that there would be any more stress on the instrument.
A skinnier string tuned to a higher pitch can (if you do the maths) have the same tension as a heavier string tuned to a lower pitch

Miles Unite wrote:With the reso I can use just about any tuning I want and don't have to worry about the axe.

Again though you will need the correct gauges for the tuning you choose.

What you may find yourself up against though is the difference in mass/inertia of a thinner string not being able to drive the cone sufficiently to give good tone ("good tone" being as subjective as it is!)... the same can also be said of the wooden soundboard of a regular acoustic or weissenborn.

On either a resonator or regular weissenborn copy you may be best off tuning to the same intervals as C6th but lower overall.
Capoing up would give you C6th.

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