any music styles not suited for lap?

[b0b]

What I mean by major label is, jazz that's played on jazz radio stations. The only steel I've ever heard on jazz radio (local or satellite) is pedal steel. I hear Greg Leitz with Bill Frisell on the Nonesuch label, and that's about all that gets played.

[Mike Neer]

It's no easy task to play Jazz on a lap steel. I've been working at it for a while, but thing is that unless you have great technique, it's very difficult to pull off anything approaching Bebop and post-Bebop and keep it interesting. Just the fact that you're improvising chorus after chorus and navigating through changes at sometimes crazy tempos would and does scare most away. I just keep plugging away at it hoping one day I'll play something that I like. I also believe that a new tuning will be necessary to make it happen. Haven't investigated the Leavitt tuning yet, though.

I should mention that I pretty much detest Smooth Jazz, although that would be a more feasible way to go.

[Kay Das]

thanks, steinar, for the links. i do not have access to audio/video file downloads here on vacation in italy, will access when back in LA. looks like it has stimulated a lot of interesting responses.

each one of us hears differently and interprets the way we are internally wired, none two of us alike. neither are two human faces with the obvious exception.... and that is the beauty of diversity.

on the side discussion of jazz on steel guitar, the pedal steel guitar probably is better adapted than lap steel, especially due to the richer number of inversions possible on the C6 neck with 10 strings rather than 6 or 8 on lap steel, and the use of the pedals to get to the accidentals. buddy emmons used to drum up a storm in his workshops. and his precision of note, crispness of duration and timing were breathtaking.

kay

[Alan Brookes]

...are any styles that a lap steel just won't fit into?...

Yes, any style of music which is designed around a particular instrument, where playing it on a different instrument completely takes away the intention of the music and its composer, for instance...

Flamenco
Pipe and Drums
Mandoline Concertos
Arabic Oud Music
A Capello
African Noseflute
Ethnic Chinese Folk Music
Lute Pieces
...I could continue for pages.

The other thing to remember is that when you introduce a new instrument into any style of music you change the nature of the music. The introduction of the Hawaiian guitar into Hawaiian music completely changed its nature, and the introduction of the Electric Lap Steel into Hawaiian music changed it further. What we recognise now as Hawaiian music is totally different to what Hawaiians would have recognized a hundred years ago. The steel guitar has also changed Country music, from the Americanized European Folk Music that it was up to the 30s, into the Country and Western that we know today.

I HAVE tuned a lap steel to G#min lute tuning and played lute pieces on it, just for fun, but those pieces sound totally different to when I play them on the lute, as they were intended, and some of the fingering needed just can't be done with a tone bar.

http://www.7161.com/css_track.cfm?track ... k_id=18928
(click on the above link, and then
)
This is an English folk song, played by me on the Hummel (the instrument from which the Mountain Dulcimer is derived) and the Cittern. I defy anyone to play it on lap steel.

[Kay Das]

this is turning out to be a very interesting thread.

alan, the recursive influence of an instrument on the type of music it is playing is a pervasive topic and you have some great examples. one of the best other examples in recent times that comes to my mind is that of jimi hendrix....(although maybe it was john lennon that first experimented with the feedback growl, it was hendrix that developed it further to an art form, if my facts are right).

we are at the threshold of a new decade and it is my observation that these historically are sometimes watersheds for the introduction of new genres and styles of music.

QUESTION: which genre of music, if any, do you forecast steel guitar may next have an influence on?

kay

PS: i hope i am not hijacking this fascinatingly rich thread, thanks to ron victoria. if he wishes to shut me up he is welcome to!!!

[Ferdinand van den Berg]

I remeber I sold one of my first electric lap steel to a German guy who played Death Metal. He was really enthousiastic, and told me he used it on stage to make "several noises not possible on a regular guitar".
Oh, and he was really trying to play blues to, in his spare time...

Fern

[Peter Jacobs]

This is the great thing about music -- it's an art form. Sometimes art soothes, sometimes it challenges, but unless someone is pushing the boundaries, there is a risk of everything sounding the same.

I don't play Hawaiian or Western swing styles, but I appreciate the musicianship. I am also glad for musicians like David Lindley, Freddy Roulette, our own Steinar and, yes, Slo-Mo because they encourage me to keep looking for new sounds while improving on my limited technique.

Banjo players constantly go on about what is "right" or "good". I've been a Tony Trischka fan since the late '70s, and it's only in the last several years that the banjo community has seen him as a force for good, not evil.

It's music -- we don't have to like all of it, let's jsut respect each other's opinions.

[Todd Weger]

I would never begrudge anyone for their opinion about music, but I will say this: You cannot judge a musician by one musical situation. I have played with and listened to musicians all my life who are chameleons and can and do play any style convincingly.

Many musicians have stuck to their guns and only played one style of music their entire lives, and I respect that. In one sense, I envy them on some level. But many of us, and I can really only speak for myself, get excited by a multitude of musical sounds--many of my closest friends could never even understand some of my choices! I am like a child when it comes to hearing sounds: filled with wonder. But that's what makes me who I am, and the next person who they are.

I've always believed in learning the traditions of a musical instrument while at the same time trying to find my own voice. The secrets of the instrument are tucked in the traditions, and the artistry of playing is filtered through the player. I play music that some would be appalled by, and yet I am a devoted student of steel traditions. The fact that I am able to find my way through most musical situations is a source of pride for me.

Play any style of music you want--just play it well!

Hear, hear! This sums up my position entirely.

[Todd Weger]

I would like to get a link to Mike's music. Anyone, please?

Here are a couple of videos from the lap steel festival at the Rodeo Bar, NY, in November:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6MOlm9Wn10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67qC0caqQCc

I love this stuff

Steiner, what is that Steel Mike Brenner is playing? It almost looks like a Beard Road-O-Phonic, but I can't tell for sure. Looks like P-90 pickup on it, though. I love the tone he's getting (and of course, very tasty playing). I'm not what I'd call a 'rap fan,' per se, but I'm diggin' this.

Thanks for the links.
TJW

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Steiner, what is that Steel Mike Brenner is playing? It almost looks like a Beard Road-O-Phonic,

Yep, it's a Road-O-Phonic, with a humbucker at the neck:

[Todd Weger]

Good screen capture, Steiner. Thanks! I should have looked closer, but I see that humbucker on there now. Sounds great, but was hoping it was a P-90 (I'm a P-90 freak, for some reason)!

I wonder if Mike added that, or custom ordered it that way? Whichever, I dig the sounds he's getting, and the cool thing is, that guitar can cover a more traditional dobro sound with the piezo in it. Not quite as good as an actual acoustic spider of course, but convincing enough (especially with something like an Aura pedal)for certain gigs where schepping an acoustic just isn't practical.

Thanks again,
TJW

[Peter Jacobs]

Couldn't agree more, Todd. Mike has some serious tone going on -- on the first video, his breaks at 1:40 and at the end sound incredible. Killer playing.

[Orville Johnson]

I think that any kind of music you can sing can be played on the lap steel or dobro. I use the slide guitar as a way to vocalize without words.

I agree with Mike Neer that to play stuff like fast be-bop lines some new tuning with lots more access to chromatic notes across the fretboard is needed.

BTW, two dobro songs of mine have been in the rotation of KPLU, a major jazz station in the NW, for several years now.

[Mike Neer]

Mike Brenner emailed me and asked me to post his response to this thread:


"forum folks--thanks very much for the cool and interesting conversation and thanks for checking out the Slo-Mo music (more at myspace.com/heyslomo, itunes, etc).

two things I typically hear after Slo-Mo shows:

1) "I don't know what that thing is in your lap, but it's the coolest thing I've ever heard."

2) "I hate rap but I like you guys."

Both comments make me feel I'm doing something that people are enjoying, whatever the reasons. Doesn't matter to me whether they've heard of Grandmaster Flash or Uncle Josh Graves.

I love to listen to great steel players playing western swing, bluegrass, straight country and other more traditionally "steel-accepted/approved" genres. Indeed, it was practicing rolls on a dobro that got me thinking about how the fast eighth note patterns from the rolls were similar to electronic sequenced synth patterns in dance music. Maybe it was growing up in Philly and hearing all the funk and hip hop blaring out of cars and stores. You are what you eat, I suppose.

To my ears, there's something inherently funky about the steel gtr and it makes perfect sense to graft its sound onto more dance-oriented genres. One of my heroes is BJ Cole, a steel gtr master who has played country, swing, classical and dub/trance/electronica, all on steel. When you add the contributions of the Campbell Bros and Debashish Bhattacharya (and, of course, many more), i think it's clear, as some of you have said already, steel gtr can go anywhere the imagination leads.

Ultimately, I feel you've got to keep your ears open not only to the music and all the amazing players that have come before us, but also to where and how to integrate it into what's going on now and in the future. Steel is too cool of an instrument to be simply relegated as just an historical novelty and niche noisemaker. rock on and thanks! Mike "Slo-Mo" Brenner, Phila, PA

PS--thanks to Mike Neer for posting this and, of course, putting on the NYC Lap Steel fest, which was a real blast and I was honored to be a part of it.
PSS--to answer some inquiries: Beard Road-a-Phonic w/Seymour Duncan humbucker, Hilton vol ped, mid-70's Fender Princeton reverb, Vai Bad Horsie Wah and way too many other effects pedals!"





There you have it.

[Mark Mansueto]

The original question harkens me back to a comment my guitar teacher told me long ago which was "there is no such thing as a bad note... only notes that sound good or bad." And basically what he was telling me was that if I like what I'm playing then it's right and I have the same opion about playing lap steel with various genres... if it sounds good then it's right.

The Mo jo guys are playing the music they love and I applaud them for stretching out and expaning their sonic territory to include the lap steel.

[James Mayer]

...are any styles that a lap steel just won't fit into?...

Yes, any style of music which is designed around a particular instrument, where playing it on a different instrument completely takes away the intention of the music and its composer, for instance...

Flamenco
Pipe and Drums
Mandoline Concertos
Arabic Oud Music
A Capello
African Noseflute
Ethnic Chinese Folk Music
Lute Pieces
...I could continue for pages.

The other thing to remember is that when you introduce a new instrument into any style of music you change the nature of the music. The introduction of the Hawaiian guitar into Hawaiian music completely changed its nature, and the introduction of the Electric Lap Steel into Hawaiian music changed it further. What we recognise now as Hawaiian music is totally different to what Hawaiians would have recognized a hundred years ago. The steel guitar has also changed Country music, from the Americanized European Folk Music that it was up to the 30s, into the Country and Western that we know today.

I HAVE tuned a lap steel to G#min lute tuning and played lute pieces on it, just for fun, but those pieces sound totally different to when I play them on the lute, as they were intended, and some of the fingering needed just can't be done with a tone bar.

http://www.7161.com/css_track.cfm?track ... k_id=18928
(click on the above link, and then
)
This is an English folk song, played by me on the Hummel (the instrument from which the Mountain Dulcimer is derived) and the Cittern. I defy anyone to play it on lap steel.

Actually, I think the steel could work quite well in flamenco. I've heard some great violin and flute that plays the singer's part and there's no reason why that couldn't be done on steel. The rhythm guitar, however, would be nearly impossible to pull off on steel.

[Hans Henrik Rasmussen]

I would like to get a link to Mike's music. Anyone, please?

Here are a couple of videos from the lap steel festival at the Rodeo Bar, NY, in November:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6MOlm9Wn10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67qC0caqQCc

I love this stuff

Wow! I really like it too! Thanks for the link - any recommendations on which other songs/albums by this band to check out?

Hans

[Bill McCloskey]

Besides the Bill Frisell work, there was also the sax player Bill Evans (not the piano player) that put out a Jazz Grass cd a while back featuring Jerry Douglas. I saw the band play live at the Blue Note and it really cooked.