| Author |
Topic: To Compress or Not....This is the question |
Jack Dougherty
From:
Spring Hill, Florida, USA
|
Posted 5 Dec 2009 6:26 pm |
|
I've almost come full circle. That is, I have returned or at least on the verge of coming back to my purest roots. I have decided to let the guitar do most of the work by letting it give it's own aura of natural tone and only ever so slightly augment it with a wee bit of reverb and delay. I have played as I'm guessing some of you have, with several of the toys available for guitar processing over these many years. I fully understand the difference between studio guitar and club guitar. I again, like some of you, have tried to bring the studio sound to the club. Sometimes close, sometimes like herding cats.
We are all aware of the acustic differences from room to room . For a steel player very frustrating.
So to the point. Has anyone toyed with compression as part of the processing game? If so, to what end and is it something you would use all the time or for specific needs? Does it have value and does it enhance the core essence of the guitar. If you do, give an example or perhaps a type of setting you might use.
My goal is not to mask the guitar but to preserve the quality of tone.
If this all sounds confusing, let me know. This is one of those three o'clock in the morning thoughts. Thanks in advance.
JD |
|
|
|
Sonny Priddy
From:
Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 5 Dec 2009 7:23 pm Sound
|
|
| I Don't Use Any Thing But My Guitar & Amp Any More I Like The Real Sound Of The Steel SONNY. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 5 Dec 2009 8:26 pm
|
|
No regular compressor does a good job on live steel, IMO, although some of the really good ones can work for controlling the steel on a recording.
On live steel I use a BOSS LMB-3 "bass limiter/enhancer" pre VP to regulate my steel's sustained tone. All 4 controls near/at 12 o'clock.
At that setting the LMB-3 doesn't compress anything and it doesn't touch the attack. It just acts as a near-perfect auto-VP that lets the tone swell when needed.
Since I started using the LMB-3 I have thrown out all other effects and various delays/chorus units - including my NV 112's equalizer and reverb, as the steel's own string- and body-tone sounds just right as is when lifted slightly by the LMB-3. The regular VP is used as a level and "expression control", as it isn't really needed for controlling sustain.
Using "delayed compression" like in the LMB-3 to lift the instrument's own tone isn't new to me, as I used an Ibanez compressor with similar characteristics on lead guitar back in the 70s. The idea is to lift the instrument's own tonal qualities cleanly - without making it sound "electronically enhanced", and not many compressors can do that. |
|
|
|
Dave Horch
From:
Frederick, Maryland, USA
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 5:45 am
|
|
Georg, you're getting my attention. You wrote;
| Quote: |
| Using "delayed compression" like in the LMB-3 |
What do you mean "delayed compression"? I didn't think that pedal did any delay thing. I thought it was a "regular" compressor with an aural exciter circuit. Actually, it's supposed to be a limiter, not a compressor, right? Also, lots of people have reviewed that this pedal introduces a lot of hiss. What's been your experience there?
Thanks, -Dave |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 7:05 am
|
|
"Hiss", yes, more than I like (and I've said so on this forum on more than one occasion) but not too bad when there's no post eq'ing. FWIW, I think the eq section in an NV 112 creates more disturbing hiss and distortion than that BOSS box, which is the main reason I bypass the NV 112's eq section completely.
By "delayed compression" I mean that it doesn't act audibly on transients/attacks when set right - moderately. The LMB-3 acts "slowly" since it's made for bass guitars where the attack-sound is important. This means the picking-sound on steel gets through uncompressed and pretty "un-colored" without affecting the overall level/compression much.
The Treshold and Ratio settings let me tune the compression for a moderate, and natural-sounding, swell of sustained strings, and it's this effect I'm after. With a compression-ratio of slightly less than 1/2 it conserves my steel's natural sound, while letting it bloom.
In my case the LMB-3 is a compromise, and I sure would like to have a unit with the same characteristics but much better data. Just haven't found one yet. Anyone got a pointer? |
|
|
|
Dave Horch
From:
Frederick, Maryland, USA
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 7:48 am
|
|
From what I read, just turn the Enhance knob to "off", and hiss will go away.
I found this page of compressor reviews (http://www.ovnilab.com/index.shtml) which has >100 comps on it. About the LMB-3, the guy wrote;
| Quote: |
| Boss LMB-3: This limiter pedal works and sounds much better than I expected. I have just spent a fair amount of time directly comparing it with several higher-priced comps, and the LMB-3 was almost as good as any of them. The lows are nice and full, and the highs are clear and present, although the overall tone is kind of dry, and not "fat". The noise level is very low. The compression ratio has a full range available, so it can be used for mild to extreme squashing. It is a limiter primarily though, it won't add noticeable sustain unless your notes stay mostly over the threshold. There are only two downsides to this pedal that I have found so far: First, there can be an audible "pop" or "click" artifact each time the limiting threshold is crossed, notably with higher ratios or harder playing. It is a small sound, that might not be audible in a full band mix, but it honestly would infuriate a solo jazz artist. Second, the "enhance" knob is, just like the ones on many amp heads, actually a "suck" knob. It scoops your mids and adds a lot of hiss. You'll want to leave the enhance turned off completely. I really wish Boss had given this pedal an "attack" knob instead. But aside from those two gripes, this thing is pretty good- all the more so when you realize they sell for around $50 used on Ebay every day. It's good enough to use on a pro gig, no problem, especially in a rock band. I imagine it might sound even better with some modding. The footswitch is not true bypass, but the bypassed tone is clean. |
|
|
|
|
Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 9:02 am yes
|
|
Jack after 7 years I know you pretty well and for you to make this statement you have surely come full circle, as you know the only thing hucked up to my guitar is a DD3 and it will always be there if I play. this and nothing else but me and it.
ernie |
|
|
|
Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 9:16 am
|
|
| I used to use light compression on my PodXT to help bring out the sustain of the steel, but when I switched to a push/pull I found that I didn't need it. That said, I think compression can be useful when shaping a steel tone, especially if it is placed between the steel and the volume pedal. This way, the level to the compressor will always be fairly consistent, assuming you pick consistently, and the compressor will be doing its job pre-VP - meaning hopefully you'll have to do less work with the VP. The Attack control on most compressors will let you dial in how fast the unit responds. For steel, I would set the Attack to a moderate setting and the Release to a slow setting. For Ratio, you probably wouldn't want to go over 3:1. That just leaves Threshold, which you'll want to set by ear until it sounds good to you. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 9:31 am
|
|
| Dave Horch wrote: |
| From what I read, just turn the Enhance knob to "off", and hiss will go away. |
Correct, but then it'll also pretty much squash the attack/picking sound - which is a sound I want to hear clearly on my steel. (When I don't want the attack-sound I back off on the VP.)
Setting/tuning the Enhance somewhere around 12 o'clock sounds better and more natural to me, and the hiss and tone-range distortion is not all that disturbing at such a moderate setting.
The lows come through so well that I often "ride the beats" with the bar on my JI-tuned steel to achieve a unique and very pleasant and playable compression-vibrato. Doesn't work for ET tuned steels, although the effect is almost unnoticeable and doesn't destroy the sound since the ET-inherent beating is too fast for the most part.
All in all it is the natural sound coming from my steel I want to hear/enhance, and the LMB-3 does a very good job at it, despite its shortcomings. All other "box" compressors I've tested lately, destroy that natural sound to much to be of any use, IMO. |
|
|
|
Jack Dougherty
From:
Spring Hill, Florida, USA
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 11:57 am
|
|
Very interesting responses. Lets put the studio aside and talk about live play.
The reason for starting this thread centers around a live tape of Buddy back in the eighties. In the Q&A section he mentioned he was using some compression. I don't know if he had his PP or LeGrand at that time. Admittedly using Buddy as an example might not be the best place to start but non the less this is the case. However, from then to now guitars and amps have changed to a certain degree. Having said this, there seems to be at least from my perspective a "retro" movement if you will to find a use older amps and guitars. Could be the economy has forced this or pickers wanting to capture a missing sound. With regard to compression; is this passe or still a viable use of processing while still holding to the natural sound?
One of my amps is a Vegas 400 where I use nothing but reverb and a DD3.
My PP and Zum to my ear sound great with the PP having more edge.
The other is a Walker where my processor is a TC Elec. G Major.
In addition to the various reverbs and delays, it also has compression.
Both guitars again do a fine job of course with the PP in the lead.
OK, back to Buddy. I was wondering if more pickers were using some sort of compression back then as opposed to now. If so, why? I know this may sound more like a round table discussion. I have not decided one way or the other.
But as I stated, at three in the morning.....
PS: Ernie yes, believe it or not back to the simple life. I'm trying to get back to the plug in and play age. |
|
|
|
Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 6 Dec 2009 8:27 pm
|
|
| I'll sometime use a compressor live just for variety. It's like any other effect pedal -- works best when used sparingly. If I thought I needed a compressor for my basic sound I'd change my guitar or amp or both. |
|
|
|
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
|
Posted 7 Dec 2009 2:55 am
|
|
Every Peavey steel amp has their "DDT" compression circuit. Every tube amplifier compresses to a greater or lesser degree, one of their charms. Every speaker limits pick transients (and HIGHS) to a greater or lesser degree, one of their charms. This is important to consider if you're trying to use modeling technology to duplicate some of what you like from tubes & speakers.
There have been a great many historical combinations which sound good, but through experimentation and design you can often get really good results out of a lot of different equipment. If you use a volume pedal, a compressor after it but before the amp is affecting the sweep and accuracy of the pedal's sweep. I use a slight amount of compression within my practicing modeler, but live I depend on the amp/speaker muting to do the same thing. I'm using a powered Hilton VP these days, and that extra preamp stage has somewhat of a compressing effect.
The "squash" from an external compressor has it's uses as a special effect, but if you're using a powered pedal (1) into a compressor (2) into a tube amp (3) into large, high-power-threshold speakers (4), be aware that you're compressing your signal four different ways. If you want a truly honest, natural sound, plug your steel into a line booster, into a dead-clean SS power amp, into some full-range PA speakers with horns and/or tweeters.
 (ouch) |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 7 Dec 2009 5:22 am
|
|
| David Mason wrote: |
If you want a truly honest, natural sound, plug your steel into a line booster, into a dead-clean SS power amp, into some full-range PA speakers with horns and/or tweeters.
(ouch) |
I used to do just that, but I've been told over and over again that no-one in their right mind would play a steel that clean. They say I have to play through distorting, limiting and generally speaking pretty lousy sound-chains, to make the steel sound "right"..?
  |
|
|
|
Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
|
Posted 7 Dec 2009 5:30 am
|
|
| I like Russ Hicks set up. Steel to volume pedal to amp. No effects and he sounds awesome. |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 7 Dec 2009 2:34 pm
|
|
Yes, you can name great players who plug straight in, but if it's Buddy Emmons you make reference to, he has always been into 'toys'. In the 70s and 80s you would never see him without an Orange Squeezer, if not a toybox full of stuff. He used octave dividers, chorus / phaser, distortion, and many other effects -- not often, but effectively (pun intended).
For compression, I personally don't like it -- it messes with my tone and volume both in live performance, but, used with taste, any effect can help shape your sound. And, yes, I used compression in the 70s -- along with a phase shifter too, but that sound is dated in today's world.
Jack, that new/old push/pull of yours has some really cool compression, right in that single coil pickup (if that's what's in your guitar). I've often recorded mine and swore I was using compression only to realize it was just that Emmons 'pop'.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
Jack Dougherty
From:
Spring Hill, Florida, USA
|
Posted 7 Dec 2009 9:00 pm
|
|
Yes Larry I have S/C TRU-TONES. Close to the Emmons windings as per Jerry.
I do get the "pop". COOL
On the ZUM, same PUs not so.
Funny you mention the Orange Squeezer. Had one of those too.
I'm not using compression now. This was just idle couriosity.
Yes it was BE I was refering to. And yes, back in the eighties he was in the gaget era. All tastfully done. I do agree that over done compression is a buzz killer. But I'm thinking at times a very very subtle hint kind of like a "What was that?" sound might ....maybe........I don't know may work.
Sorry.....Had a Bret Favre moment  |
|
|
|
Dan Murphy
From:
Missouri, USA
|
Posted 8 Dec 2009 4:57 am
|
|
| I use a rack compressor,I have used it for yrs. I think it gives me more of a studio tone , more like what you here on the artists cd s. I just use a slight bit of compresion.Its a Aleises unit. |
|
|
|
