"Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places?

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Oct 2009 10:14 am

Twayne....I appreciate your comment and respectfully disagree.

The color of a guitar greatly impacts the mind which can manifest itself in the perception of tone. Our experiments revealed, the eyes "hear" differently than the ears.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 20 Oct 2009 10:21 am

Reece Anderson wrote:Twayne....I appreciate your comment and respectfully disagree.

The color of a guitar greatly impacts the mind which can manifest itself in the perception of tone. Our experiments revealed, the eyes "hear" differently than the ears.

My experiments have revealed a different conclusion. We, sir, must agree to disagree!

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Oct 2009 10:44 am

Twayne......disagreements are understandable. I believe I have clearly presented my point of view and my associated reasoning. Would you care to explain your methods of experimentation which lead you to a different conclusion?

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 20 Oct 2009 11:33 am

Reece Anderson wrote:Twayne......disagreements are understandable. I believe I have clearly presented my point of view and my associated reasoning. Would you care to explain your methods of experimentation which lead you to a different conclusion?

Sure! My experiments have been conducted in the impartial laboratory of various music stores and friends houses and the stages of various venues

They usually involve the staff (sometimes that's me) and various friends who's impartiality I trust (i.e other tone hounds.) Not once has the color of an instrument been a determining factor in how anyone thought the instrument sounded, only in whether we liked the looks of it or not. Sometimes the composition of a guitars finish can impact the sound, and certainly the shape of an instrument has an impact on its sound, but not the color itself.

Also, my opinions are formed by my musical education at the Conservatory of Music at the University of Missouri, Kansas City as a composition/performance major where my courses included aesthetics, acoustics, composition, electronic music, recording, etc. None of which necessarily makes me an expert in anything

Let's try a thought experiment:

You (in this case Reese

) sit down at a white guitar, and play it and then tell the person listening that you find the sound "cold". You move to a black guitar and play and tell the listener that you find the sound "warm." The listener agrees with you. Is it because the listener looking at the guitars really hears the white guitar as colder sounding and the black guitar as warmer sounding? Or is it because you told them that the white guitar was cold and the black guitar was warm? This is similar to the technique of the "leading question" where the questioner actually gives the respondent the answer they want.

Casual listening is different that critical listening. I certainly don't disagree that an instruments appearance has an impact on my enjoyment in playing it. And certainly a persons prejudices can have an impact on their causal listening experience, but a critical listening experience, by its very nature, will filter out most of those prejudices.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Oct 2009 12:31 pm

Twayn.....We have a communications misfire, and I apologize if it's my fault.

I have never said or even implied that color is the determining factor in the way a guitar sounds, nor have I ever said color was detectable relative to sound. I have said in essence.......that color contributes to a persons overall perception of sound/tone. You are speaking literally, and I'm addressing that which is relative only to perception.

Your example of a persons perception being influenced and sometimes skewed by opinion is in agreement with our findings as well, which is part of my motivation for starting this thread originally.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 20 Oct 2009 12:38 pm

S'all good.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 20 Oct 2009 1:06 pm

Twayne -

I find little argument with what you've said - EXCEPT - what was your motivation in introducing a SECOND PARTY into the equation? Reece's initial hypothesis dealt only with the player's perception of tone as it relates, to whatever degree, to the visual aesthetics of the instrument. The PLAYER is the sole arbiter in this decision. Further, you failed to mention whether the second party were a PSG player - or not. Is this an attempt at instant education of a non-player as to desirable tone in a PSG? Quite arbitrary, is it not? Put yourself into your equation as the second party - and, most importantly, as a PSG player. Would you be swayed by the opinion of the one plucking the strings or would you - as we all would agree - rely upon your ear and personal preferences in tone to be the determining factor - color and aesthetics notwithstanding? Quite a different posture than that of the uninitiated.

For my money, Reece - or anyone - could be playing a pink guitar with purple polkadots and their stated opinion would be just that - a stated opinion. My perception would prevail - regardless of whether the color of the instrument played a role in my decision. You and I - as players - are the only persons' granted license to "critical listening" as it pertains to the PSG. All others are nothing more than randomly selected graduates of a music appreciation course who may just play an instrument quite removed from the PSG - an instrument which could, conceivably, be quite foreign to the new listener. Is your (our) sole evaluation of an instrument to be the benchmark by which all PSG's are to be judged based upon - of all things - color?

In all fairness, it should be noted that a search on the internet relevant to senses and perception will show that Reece has a valid point in fact. We should not deviate from his simply-stated thesis and introduce notions not pertinent to that original idea.

If I "suggested" to you that "black always sounds better" would you buy it?

I think not - 'cause you're a player.

Respectfully,

Richard

admin · Post by **b0b** » 20 Oct 2009 1:38 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:I have never said or even implied that color is the determining factor in the way a guitar sounds, nor have I ever said color was detectable relative to sound.

<center>
Black guitars sound best.
</center>
You may quote me.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 20 Oct 2009 2:03 pm

ditto

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Oct 2009 2:14 pm

Reece Anderson wrote: I have said in essence.......that color contributes to a persons overall perception of sound/tone.

I personally don't have a problem with this statement.
It would be interesting to hear Jonathan Candler (A blind player) and David Wright (Custom paint job) feedback on this topic.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 20 Oct 2009 2:21 pm

Richard Damron wrote:I find little argument with what you've said - EXCEPT - what was your motivation in introducing a SECOND PARTY into the equation?

It helps illustrate the point. Sorry if you found it more confusing than enlightening!

I think Reese's general thesis in this thread (and I could certainly be wrong about this!) can be boiled down to:

"All modern PSG's sound the same (minus different pickups/amps/etc.), therefore the only significant difference between brands is how they look and the feel of their mechanisms."

Maybe this is just my perception of his position

Now, I don't agree with this thesis (as I have stated it!) I believe that all the little things can add up to a significant and audible difference. I'm not so sure there is enough of a difference for "brand" purposes, but I believe there is enough difference between individual guitars that it is perceptible. My (admittedly) limited exposure to different brands of PSG's seems to bear this out.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Oct 2009 2:34 pm

b0b.....you're writing so LOUD that what you're saying makes no sense to me.

Bo Legg.....Who or what are you dittoing?

Pete B....I believe research will verify those who are visually challenged are blessed with dramatically heightened awareness of all other senses.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Oct 2009 3:23 pm

Reece Anderson wrote: Pete B....I believe research will verify those who are visually challenged are blessed with dramatically heightened awareness of all other senses.

This would rule the whole color thing out, but I'm thinking it would be super fun and easy to do a YouTube clip of Jonathan listening to and taking a shot at correctly identifying various brands of PSG's, while David plays the same passage on each.
I've seen him correctly identify notes played, with no reference tone.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Oct 2009 3:32 pm

Twayn….I agree little things can add up, but believing they can rise to the level of attaining the ability for someone to consistently identify an audible difference in tone of a specific guitar in a comparison evaluation, is quite another matter.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 20 Oct 2009 3:54 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:Twayn….I agree little things can add up, but believing they can rise to the level of attaining the ability for someone to consistently identify an audible difference in tone of a specific guitar in a comparison evaluation, is quite another matter.

Maybe not between brands, but between individual guitars, I believe so. I don't have any clinical documented evidence for this when it come's to PSG's though!

As an example, for years and years and years 6-string players have tried to make strats sound like les pauls and les pauls sound like strats. You can put the same humbuckers in a strat, but it won't sound like a les paul, and you can split the coils on a les paul, but it won't sound like a strat. If you use the same woods between the two, and make them the same scale length, and remove the trem from the strat and use a tune-o-matic bridge and set the neck instead of bolting it on, then your weird strat will sound like a les paul because for everything but the shape, it is a les paul. Even then, unless the shape is also the same it will still sound subtly different. And then of course there is the difference between each individual guitar. Some are dogs, some shine. In 6-strings this is due to quality of parts, quality of construction, and overall quality control. Even though PSG's don't have nearly as much wood in them and are far more machine-like, these differences will still crop up between individual guitars.

I do agree with you that it seems that many (not all!) modern PSGs are constructed so similarly that a consistant brand "sound" is probably not very strong. After all, if everyone uses the same parts, made the same way with the same constrained set of materials, it's like an assembly line of apple pies.

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 20 Oct 2009 3:55 pm

I like kittens.

Arch.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Oct 2009 4:04 pm

Reece Anderson wrote:...the ability for someone to consistently identify an audible difference in tone of a specific guitar in a comparison evaluation...

Has anyone ever given a blind person a shot at it?
Just curious.
pete b.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 20 Oct 2009 4:07 pm

Goodness Goodness Goodness,,,,,, I love this!
The more this thread goes on, the more I learn about the thinking posters!

This is all food for thought with a lot of pushing the envelope ,,,,,,both ways.
I read it all with a clear mind and try to analize the basis for
some of the statements being put forward.

I look at the words and try to understand motives behind who is preaching what, some have an agenda, some just look for the facts, and then some just have fun planting good thoughts that might really be just silliness like "black guitars sound better!

If a person is influenced by the way a steel looks, by what he sees instead of what he hears with his ears, I feel he's not a musician but instead an artist and is one of those folks that takes his camera to a steel show instead of his cassette recorder,,,,,,,,and he'll say "boy, you should have SEEN ole' Sonny play", instead of, "Man, ole' Sonny played some great things with wonderful tone".

If the second guy says, "did you get a picture of him? Then he probably has cardboard ears and nothing you say to him will matter any way.

If you are a musician, the eyes don't really matter, if you aren't, take your camera and see how pretty everybody is.

Sarah Jory must be the worlds greatest steel player, just look at her!

I love hearing Maurice Anderson play, but photographing him instead of recording him is an insult. Yes Maurice, you play a lot better than you look, and I hope I do also.

People ask me all the time, "have you seen ole' Tommy White play? Yep, but hearing him is a lot better. I don't hear with my eyes, and I'm proud to say this!

Talk about silliness, this is it! but think about what I'm saying, in you free time.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Oct 2009 4:22 pm

C'mon Bobbe, Name that Steel in three notes or less!

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 20 Oct 2009 6:01 pm

Twayn….I don’t believe I would go so far as to say modern steel guitars are constructed similarly any more than I would say a Cadillac is constructed like a Lincoln. They of course have similarities, but they are nothing alike.

The same analogy is true when it comes to your comments that manufacturers use like machine parts, or they are made the same way or constructed of (in your words) the same constrained set of materials. To say they are like an assembly line of apple pies is not an accurate statement in my opinion.

Archie…..It’s always great to see an animal lover identify themselves.

Bobbe S…..Interesting that you used the word “influenced” which I have eluded to throughout this thread. Influence impacts perception, which is one of my motivations for this thread.

You may have a good idea concerning not caring about how a steel looks, because if no one cared what a steel looked like, all the manufacturers could just make ugly steels and sell them for a lot less.

I’ve seen your nice cars, but wouldn’t an ugly car get you there just as well that cost 1/10 as much? I believe the eyes and consequent perception matters to all of us.

You mentioned cardboard ears and I have heard that analogy used before, but isn’t a paper product that which amplifier speakers are made of?

I appreciate your comment about my playing..…I think….anyway, right back atcha, it’s always good to know I’m not alone.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 20 Oct 2009 7:28 pm

Black steels just look like they sound better!

John P. Phillips · Post by **John P. Phillips** » 20 Oct 2009 7:40 pm

I think they sound like they look better !

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 21 Oct 2009 6:18 am

I have an identical white and black Zumsteel. THe white one is definately more cheerful and aggressive. The black is nice for "crying in your beer songs..."

Of course all the senses contribute to an esthetic experience.

And I must respectfully disagree with a previous poster- put Reece Anderson behind a yellow guitar with purple polka dots, and I don't care what he plays, I believe you will perceive it differently than if he were behind a staid, black MSA!

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 21 Oct 2009 7:17 am

Reece and fellow forumites, I have done a bit of experimenting along with Reece when I worked at MSA. The best test of which was a ears only test. I have recorded several CDs at a particular studio here in Texas. Each time with the same amp and effects unit, Peavey Nashville 112 and Pod Xt. Using the same mic and amp settings the same. Last year I put four tracks from CDs using this same configuration but four different guitars all having single coil pickups. My Zumsteel all wood D-10, My MSA Legend, my Sho-Bud Permanent and Joan's MSA Millennium. If I didn't know which was which I would have only been able to say that one may be a little brighter or darker than another. I put songs using all four guitars on one CD and played it for several friends of which no one could identify every different guitar. Some made guesses that were correct but most were not. When I asked which one do you like the best, 1, 2 , 3 or 4 the majority pick the number for the MSA Legend and the Sho-Bud. I did not tell anyone what thier choices were. Then I asked each one when they picked their favorite what brand did they think it was. About half said they thought it was an Emmons PP, a few said Sho-Bud, and the rest said MSA or Zum. I have yet to do this test
test including my Jackson but I will. Now to tell you the final result the two tracks that
were by far the most picked were the Legend and the Sho-Bud with the Legend being #1. Now to one other thing, I don't think any guitar has an inherent TONE but I do think some have an inherent SOUND. My thought is that the majority of anyones tone and sound is in the hands of that player. And that tone can be COLORED by the controls on the
amplifier. Most professional players have expressed to me that when it comes to the sound of the guitar that it is mostly how the instrument responds to their touch or technique. I find this to be true also. Most players prefer a 241/4 scale where I like a 24" scale. I don't think any player should ever decide what is right for him/her based on what any other player has. I cannot sit down at Buddy' guitar and sound like Buddy. Nor can I sit at Reece's and sound like him. With that said I know that people listen with their eyes. Try getting Johnny Russell or Charlie Pride a record deal today. No one would touch either because they listen with their eyes.
My two cents.
BTW, everyone thought the MSA was a Push Pull. I believe it was because they wanted it to be.

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 21 Oct 2009 7:25 am

Johnny, another reason this discussion could go on and on is your friends picking the steel they thought sounded best is they may have been influenenced by which song they liked best. No argument with your observations, just another variable in the mix.