"Looking" For Tone In The Wrong Places?

[Richard Damron]

Joe Miraglia -

I don't - as yet - use a hearing aid but I beg of you: When you find the hearing aid with THAT tone then please let me know.

Georg -

Right on, my friend! I suspect that very few players have EVER heard the steel played through a hi-fidelity system. WHO KNOWS what the inherent tone of an instrument is after all of the non-linear processing that goes on? It starts with the pickup and ends with - not the speaker - but the ears of the beholder. If one attempted to "educate" the ears of potential listeners to be chosen for a test, then the instruments would have to be - of necessity - played through a linear, "transparent" system. That, to my knowledge, has never been done but appears to be a necessary prerequisite to any such subjective testing.

The can of worms gets increasingly larger.

Respectfully,

Richard

[Bo Legg]

I started out on a MSA Classic with super sustain P/U and later I went to a Sho-Bud Super Pro.
They both used the word Super. The word Super is meaningless used in this way, and had no bearing whatsoever in my purchasing either PSG.
When we first start out with that burning desire to learn PSG we give little thought to tone or sustain. Playability and cost of a PSG are at that time the main considerations.
The more I practice the better my tone.
You don't need to look for tone, practice and get out and play and it will find you. This is assuming of course you have something other than a student model.

[Alan Miller]

Well I have read a lot of the postes here and it has to be said that this tone "thing" always gets a great number of replies every time it comes up as a new topic.

I do not think this will ever be resolved to the point where everyone 100% thinks the same way, it is obviously a very interesting and important subject but the animated cartoon posted last year of someone flogging an expired horse comes to mind.

[J D Sauser]

Maybe, one thing that could be added to the equation is the probability that our hearing (ears and brain) varies and also changes over time (not always only for the worst).
Maybe also we ought to take a step back in time, and compare non pedal steels, which have less technical/mechanical variables than later PSG's. I think that the simpler an instrument, interestingly the more there seems to be noticeable differences in tone, or call it timbre. Well, the materials could be fundamentally different, like cast aluminum, sheet metals, woods and even early plastics... notably Bakelite.
Pedal steels, once they evolved into a certain standard design and choice of materials (albeit a few exotics), may have less fundamental differences and are more dependent on their technical design (the changer most predominantly).
Still, as I said before, I remember times I could tell a certain well acclaimed brand of steel guitars apart from other steels being plaid in the main ball room of a convention, even if I was stretching my ears out in the lobby, because it had certain characteristics which I personally could not stand.
Now, and I like to believe that my hearing is fine, I don't have an issue with that brand anymore (and it's not an MSA). I even plaid one recently which I knew hat "it", that pesky little frequency thing which could make me hate steel guitar... and I don't hear it anymore.
I also seem to EQ my steel differently than I used too... my life got easier.

While I agree that the visual aspects of instruments influences the way we like to think (Maurice uses the word "perception") a particular instrument, model, brand sounds because of it's name, finish, overall looks and style or even color and elegance of its logo, and that maybe as much as our inclination towards famous people playing or being involved in building it at a particular point in time, I believe that EVERY instrument will most likely have it's own timbre and character.
Will the differences be so small, they can most likely only be seen on an oscilloscope? I would think that that may very well still be the case with modern consistent quality production instruments.

Now, the amp argument is certainly one which can stand. We model our EQ'ing after the current basic sound or tone model. Amps are not just amplifiers anymore. Once they were designed to provide just volume to low volume instruments, with little consideration for true louder replication of the instrument's original tone. Then came "HiFi", which some could categorize as a failed attempt or hype and now, we have amps, which "model", add, subtract and give us things like "bottom" (where's the bottom on yer steel? ).

I for one, like to try a steel unplugged in a silent environment first. This is where I seem to hear real differences and also seem able to concentrate not only on what I hear but what I feel in vibration.
On the other hand, I understand Maurice's argument, that at the end of the day, it's what blears out of that speaker which counts... that's what will end up on the tape or find itself blasted out at the audience. Still, I think, subtle differences heard playing an instrument unplugged may help tell a dog from an exceptional "one".
I still remember the only PP I'd ever had wanted... I plaid that one "dry" for a good while... and it had something... it was like it was making my hands and arms "sing" too.
I also still keep fond memories of my little 50's Gibson UltraTone with the pickup people said was a P90... but unlike any other steel had such an presence and in-your-face electrical tone. Never did I ever find one like it again. Had I not stupidly sold it, I would have performed an autopsy on it. So, maybe it was better I sold it.

Really, I am not sure anymore where to stand on this issue, while I believe Maurice has a point, I am also a little confused because of what I have seen, felt and heard... at times. Maybe also, I concern myself too much on exceptions... after all, it's exceptions which confirm the rule.

Finally, let me just add this. Many here will know that I have high and the warmest regards for Maurice and his family and that I consider him not just a friend but a mentor (which is a term which goes beyond saying "my music teacher"). So, while I am somewhat partial to the opinion he has shared with us here on this thread, I am sorry to have to say that I am appalled to see the sort of comments, insinuations and character attacks a few posters here have resorted to use in trying to make their opinion(s) a more "valid" one. One may disagree, even with a man of his experience, musical proficiency, him being a steel guitar icon, that's OK... but please, try to at least learn one thing then from this man, which is to remain a gentleman at all times.
It's comments like these and not the subject at hand, which has made this thread loose some of it's allure.

... J-D.

[Al Collinsworth]

..

[Reece Anderson]

Don B…..Nice post, and you are exactly right, part of a persons soul can be manifested through an instrument.

It’s also true that each guitar has an inherent tone that is unique unto itself. Finding the pathway between a players soul and a guitars inherent unique tone, is THE answer to someone finding the sound/tone they have always dreamed of having.

This IS achievable by those who know how to, or have been fortunate as to accidentally tap into their natural perception which connects the mind, body, and spirit to the instrument.

Having the ability to do so is without question attainable, and sharing the realization of such a connection is that which provided my motivation for this thread, for understanding ourselves is the beginning of what it takes to acquire one’s unique and personal perception.

The filtering of opinion and comprehending that which our eyes provide, can and will make the connections that will allow the mind, body, and spirit to become one and create a sound/tone like nothing one ever before imagined.

Those who are totally convinced the guitar they play is the best sounding guitar are telling the truth as they believe it, but because they are happy with it, does not mean you would be. That which I consider a myth has the propensity to draw others toward guitars when possibly the connection between them and that particular guitar is simply not there for them. This could be part of the reason some often switch guitars. At times changing guitars can provide a fresh approach which equates to renewed enthusiasm, however at times that can be short lived because it may be that the guitar does not “connect” with their perception.

I appreciate your comment about the subject title of this thread……I used the word “Looking” to interject the suggestion of the power of vision. “For Tone in The Wrong Places” I was referring to other physiological reasoning and the perceived inherent tone in specific brands of guitars not necessarily providing the essential personal connections for everyone.

I appreciate all the insighful posts, and the kind demeanor in which they are presented.

[b0b]

I just took delivery of a new pedal steel this week (a Desert Rose). As soon as I plugged it in, I could tell that it had an inherent tone that was different from any other steel guitar I've played.

I have my preferences. I easily discovered that dialing back the treble on my amp by two numbers gave me the kind of tone I prefer. It's not exactly like my Williams, and I'm not sure that a casual listener would hear the differences after I tweaked my amp, but I sure can hear it. And I have no doubt that on a line direct recording (no amp, no EQ), I could tell which was which.

The ear is a very subjective measuring device. If you want to duplicate the tone of a specific guitar, measure that guitar with lab instruments and build some prototypes. Measure each of the prototypes and keep tweaking them until you have it as close as you can get it.

Or you could just tell your customers that inherent tone is a myth.

[Dave Mudgett]

Reece Anderson wrote:

The amp you prefer places you in a very small minority and no steel player I know would play professionally through an amp like you are recommending.

You're probably right, and I think it's a shame. No big deal though as even I use a pretty standard, crappy, steel amp for playing, but not for evaluation of the instrument.

I think this gets to the point-of-view difference that separates us. What is the purpose of a steel guitar? Is it a device for scientific interpretation of its frequency response, or is it a device on which to make music?

If your goal is to evaluate frequency responses, I think that using instrumentation as per Ed Packard is a far better choice. I think that is an entirely reasonable thing to do, and there are many things to learn about how different construction materials and techniques affect timbre, sustain, and perhaps other sonic properties.

But even with that said, IMO there is not is a single, unitary 'inherent tone' to an instrument. A steel guitar is a driven, not free, vibrational system, and its output also depends on the strings, how it's picked, how the bar is used, how the instrument is maintained, and probably a host of other things. There is an envelope of timbres available within any instrument, and how the instrument reacts to one's hands and feet is a very important factor, IMHO. I think this is one of the things that I look for in a guitar - does it react, sonically, in a way that I like as a player? It's not so much whether or not I can produce a particular tonality on an instrument, but do I like the way it feels to get the range of tonalities I want. I think, as Reece and others have suggested many times, that a really good player can coax the tonalities they need out of technically somewhat different instruments - I argue that from a practical point of view, the envelope of available tonalities from different instruments often overlap. But still, it may be easier or feel better to work with one instrument than another.

Naturally, this brings me to my sense of purpose of a steel guitar - to play it to make music, not to evaluate its envelope of timbres. I'm not against that at all, but for most of us, an instrument is either is an effective vehicle to make music, or it is not.

I think I could effectively argue that no two instruments, subject to exactly the same driving force, have exactly the same complex frequency response. If you want to be this gloriously technical, that's fine. But from a typical player's practical point of view, I think the relevant question is whether the envelope of driven frequency responses available from an instrument cover the range of sounds in a way that the player likes.

Of course, the other issue is that most steel guitars, and certainly any pedal steel guitar I've seen, are electric instruments. Again from my insistently player-oriented point of view, I care ultimately about what comes out of the speaker - the acoustic output of the guitar is only one part of the picture. I haven't heard anybody say that acoustic piece isn't important, but an amplified steel guitar a complex interconnected system in which everything matters. Amplifiers, hands, and the rest of the signal chain are a critical part of the tone production equation. I personally find the sound of solid-body electric guitars of whatever type through a perfectly linear signal path to be quite boring. The plank of wood model ain't gonna give you the highly resonant, interesting, often nonlinear, and extremely diverse responses of different acoustic flattops, archtops, or resonators. In that world, highly linear amplification is often used to preserve that sound, but in solid-body electrics, the nonlinear amp and signal chain has always been a critical part of the sound production. Linear may be easy for analysis, but nonlinear is where the real action is. The real world is nonlinear and complex.

My opinions, of course.

[Wayne Franco]

I think you hit the nail on the head in the last post Reece when you said an instrument has the ability to bring out your very soul. Your meaning in this post is much deeper and insightful. I certainly can not argue with it. To ad one more obvious thing to this is the different techniques players use to tune their instrument. Your ears get use to a certain sound and you think it is the best way to do it. Keeping an open mind on this subject is certainly important. Hope putting the "tuning" subject into this threat doesn't get me killed.

[Alan Brookes]

There are so many variables involved here.
[1] The player, the tone bar, finger picks.
[2] The tone of the instrument, pedal adjustment.
[3] Processors, volume control.
[4] Microphones.
[5] Amplifiers' inherent tone and settings.
[6] Environment.
[7] Placement of listener.
[8] The listener's own hearing.
Two people could listen to the same performance and hear totally different tones. just depending on where they were seated and their own hearing abilities.

[Reece Anderson]

Wayne F.....Excellent point. When someone feels their guitar to be perfectly in tune, the mind becomes more focused and the guitar responds differently.

Alan B.....Certainly a valid list of variables for consideration.

Dave M.....I always enjoy reading and appreciate your articulate posts.

[Herb Steiner]

I've astounded myself today, at home nursing a bad back, by reading this entire thread, which in itself is both mind-boggling and numbness-rendering. Threads I've read about "tone" turn into an exercise in head-butting in the past. But this one's caused me to reflect on a few things.

Please allow me to state my OPINIONS, which won't be changed by being badgered, so y'all can spare me the flames.

The personal level to which this thread has de-volved by some participants is abjectly disappointing to me.

First, this battle between Jim Sliff and his supporters v. Maurice has become, as in the past, yet another zero-sum game; for someone to "win," the other side HAS to "lose." No room for disagreement: *proof* is required or else the adversary is a liar and a sham. Lying to me means knowing something to be true but stating otherwise. What an outrageous accusation and assumption to make! Having a different opinion based on different life experiences or education makes no difference whatsoever. Personal agendas trump explanation of opinion, gentlemanly disengagement is considered defeat. Chicken-wire-around-the-ring death match... loser leaves town.

(insert audible "sigh" here.)

Y'all can talk about tone all you want since it's obviously very important to everyone who participated in this thread on many levels. I would offer the opinion that for many players like myself, tone is far secondary to NOTES.

The tone a player produces at any given moment is a function of whatever guitar he's playing, what amp he's using, how he feels at the moment, and the room he's playing in. I've enjoyed many, many differing tones from many different players. I myself use different amp settings and tone settings on my guitars depending upon the gig. But I don't listen to a player or buy his recordings because I want to hear his "tone," or because he plays a particular guitar.

I listen for a player's CHOPS, his mastery of the instrument. The NOTES a player produces tells me what's in his HEART and his MIND. His song selection, his tempos, his sense of style. How he perceives his choice of notes reflects his emotions and how his choice of notes will influence the hearts and minds of those listening to him.

Unless a player's tone is so out of whack as to be unlistenable... a very rare occurance amongst professional players..., pickers who feel like me could care less about treble/bass/timbre/whatever. I want the man I'm listening to to show me his heart, to make me laugh, or make me cry. I'd like to see the man's SOUL.

To me, this is what music is about. Emotions. Not winning some insignificant (IMHO) word game.

Reece, as you know, I've listened to your music for four decades. I don't have an opinion on what was the outcome of the blind test y'all did at MSA 35 years ago, how "controlled" or "scientific" it was. Rarely have I felt the urge to duplicate the sound of your guitar, but I've labored for hours and hours to get into how you think about melody, harmony, chords and technique. I believe these things are why you're in the HOF.

Y'all can carry on now.

[Geoff Cline]

Thanks Herb...well said.

[Herb Steiner]

One more comment about "visuals."

Visuals are very important in the way many of us feel about guitars. When I was first getting into pedal steel guitar in 1965, after playing dobro and non-pedal for several years, a "pedal steel" looked like either a Fender, a Bigsby, a Sho-Bud, or an Emmons. This is what my impressionable adolescent mind locked on.

Consequently, though I've owned Fessendens and Mullen guitars, I have Fenders, a Bigsby, and I play onstage primarily a 1964 Emmons, though occasionally a 1970 Sho~Bud Professional. These are the instruments I relate to emotionally. Not logical, of course, but no one ever accused me of being logical.

I participated in a blind test in 1998. I stopped in at the Carter factory on my way back from Nashville where I'd just picked up a 1965 Emmons that Mike Cass had restored for me. I loved the sound of that guitar.

John Fabian had 3 Carters there that were ready to be shipped to buyers. He suggested that we set them up next to my Emmons and go in the side room while Bud played each. The result was that two of the guitars obviously were not the Emmons, no way, but two were so close as to be nearly impossible to tell. Of course, I was already familiar with the sound of my Emmons. So, guess what? The tone I thought HAD to be the Emmons was in fact the third Carter, one equipped with GeoL TPP pickups.

I was surprised and impressed, to say the least.

I called the buyer of the guitar and told him the results of the blind test, and he was ecstatic! He couldn't wait to get the guitar.

Of course, being a steel player, the first thing he did when he got the guitar was change out the pickups! Goes to show, you never can tell!

[Lee Jeffriess]

I honestly believe that your personal signature tone which comes from your hands, trumps a guitars inherent tone.
I think it is part of your identity and you find ways of achieving it on different guitars (I dont mean style).
Thank you Reece for your insights they give us a lot to reflect upon.
Lee

[Donny Hinson]

There are so many variables involved here.
[1] The player, the tone bar, finger picks.
[2] The tone of the instrument, pedal adjustment.
[3] Processors, volume control.
[4] Microphones.
[5] Amplifiers' inherent tone and settings.
[6] Environment.
[7] Placement of listener.
[8] The listener's own hearing.
Two people could listen to the same performance and hear totally different tones. just depending on where they were seated and their own hearing abilities.

I agree totally, and it's good to mention all that stuff that goes reproducing into what we ultimately hear. I also feel that testing steels in a manner other than that which they are used (e.g., with hi-fi or flat-response amps) is a totally useless exercise. Kinda like testing a limousine in a hill climb, or a dune buggy at Le Mans.

Still, I think, subtle differences heard playing an instrument unplugged may help tell a dog from an exceptional "one".

Problem is...what one person considers a "dog" may just exactly be what someone else prefers. The sheer variety of brands among the top 10 or 20 players (name your own favorites, it makes little difference) shows us quite well that just about anything in the "pro" category can get the job done. Players can argue 'til the cows come home, but simple observation shows there is no clear leader in the tone department. That's proved quite well by the fact that there's also no clear leader in the sales figures (for similarly made and priced pro models) for any brand.

To put it in perfect perfect perspective, all you have to do is realize that no matter what brand you play, the majority of players out there play something different.

[Roual Ranes]

I would think that Herb Steiner's last post would put a cap on this thread.

[Donny Hinson]

(insert audible "sigh" here.)

Y'all can talk about tone all you want since it's obviously very important to everyone who participated in this thread on many levels. I would offer the opinion that for many players like myself, tone is far secondary to NOTES.

The tone a player produces at any given moment is a function of whatever guitar he's playing, what amp he's using, how he feels at the moment, and the room he's playing in. I've enjoyed many, many differing tones from many different players. I myself use different amp settings and tone settings on my guitars depending upon the gig. But I don't listen to a player or buy his recordings because I want to hear his "tone," or because he plays a particular guitar.

I listen for a player's CHOPS, his mastery of the instrument. The NOTES a player produces tells me what's in his HEART and his MIND. His song selection, his tempos, his sense of style. How he perceives his choice of notes reflects his emotions and how his choice of notes will influence the hearts and minds of those listening to him.

Unless a player's tone is so out of whack as to be unlistenable... a very rare occurance amongst professional players..., pickers who feel like me could care less about treble/bass/timbre/whatever. I want the man I'm listening to to show me his heart, to make me laugh, or make me cry. I'd like to see the man's SOUL.

To me, this is what music is about.

Well Herb, that makes (probably only) two of us.

The rest think that respect among your peers is something you can buy at the local musical instrument store.

You don't "buy" the music, you make it!

[Roual Ranes]

Georg,
Herb picked the wrong guitar then the guy that got that guitar changed the P/U. Why if it sounded like a P/P........it didn't to him.
Maybe Bud needed to play it for him!!

[Jimmie Martin]

I find that my tone is better when i clean up my picking.

[David Griffin]

Hey,I'm new on here,but I have an idea:Why not use the St. Louis steel convention to set up a test(w/ manufacturers loaning steels & a few "benchmark" vintage steels). Maybe Scotty could set up a "test" room.Have the steels set up behind a curtain w/ the same player playing in each "test'(rotating during the convention).Set "show" times & have 30 or 40 attendees fill out a simple form. Enter the data into a computer & let THAT end this debate.

[Fred Rushing]

Georg help me out here. Why would you evaluate a guitar with an amp you would never use practically? I would thank that would be like judging the ride in a new car with out tires on it? Help me out here. thanks Fred